daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 29th, 2016, 04:33 PM   #35181
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,235
Likes (Received): 1751

To be honest, the hybrid engine that toyota provides sounds also very good (3,5 l/100 km average consumption). But the price - it is 5 000 € more expensive than the conventional one.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 29th, 2016, 04:37 PM   #35182
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Hyundai Ioniq is reportedly quite competitive compared to Toyota Prius. In the Netherlands, the conventional Hyundai Ioniq hybrid (no plugging in) is € 8000 cheaper than the Toyota Prius.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

winnipeg liked this post
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2016, 05:49 PM   #35183
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,805
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
However, there are still a lot of people who drive > 500km/day on a business trip. For instance, most of my colleagues do it. My maximum travel distance was 1,000km on just one day. Some colleagues travel to Italy and the travel time is similar by car or by plane. I don't think that traveling by plane is more eco-friendly.
How about a trailer with a power generator:



or a more lightweight solution:

MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2016, 07:30 PM   #35184
winnipeg
Registered User
 
winnipeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Arad
Posts: 664
Likes (Received): 206

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
That's why I commented it. I don't think that you can make a France-Romania trip in one day with an EV like you currently do with your "old-fashioned" car.

I recently read that companies plan to extend the EV operating distance to > 500km. I think that's enough for about 95% of all car drivers.

However, there are still a lot of people who drive > 500km/day on a business trip. For instance, most of my colleagues do it. My maximum travel distance was 1,000km on just one day. Some colleagues travel to Italy and the travel time is similar by car or by plane. I don't think that traveling by plane is more eco-friendly.

And what's about trucks or vans, especially deliver vans?

Maybe we will only lease batteries one day? Driving till the battery is almost empty and take another one at a station? But this would mean, that the huge battery must be "simply plugged" only, not mounted like today...

It's still a long way...
Right!

I think that a plugged battery would be too complicated and not reliable...
winnipeg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2016, 08:53 PM   #35185
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,805
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
I don't think that traveling by plane is more eco-friendly.
It depends on many factors, and all sources show different figures. The CO2 emissions of the flight depends on whether the aircraft is full or not, on type of the aircraft, and the distance to travel. And everything is averaged over a number of flights to eliminate the fluctuation.

Many sources show figures of 90-95 grams of CO2 per passenger kilometers on short-haul flights and 65-70 grams on long-haul ones. Again, in average. This is less than for a typical car with the driver only. Note: This does imply that a 2000 km flight would be more ecological than a drive of 200 km.

Especially in Germany, it is good to understand that CO2 emissions of cars increase substantially when the speed increases. A car which emits 140 g/km of CO2 at the speed of 130 km/h, emits 350-400 g/km at the speed of 200 km/h.

CO2 emissions, of course, are not the only indicator, but it is widely in use.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 04:40 PM   #35186
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,235
Likes (Received): 1751

The least eco-friendly mode of transport is a conventional car occupied by a driver only. Just calculate the fuel per capita per 100 km. The exact opposite is a train consisting of high number of railcars and pulled by an electric locomotive. The main weakness of a plane is a taking-off manoeuvre. But taking account of distance, nothing is as flexible as a car.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 09:02 PM   #35187
x-type
con los terroristas
 
x-type's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bjelovar [HR]
Posts: 13,471
Likes (Received): 3438

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
The least eco-friendly mode of transport is a conventional car occupied by a driver only. Just calculate the fuel per capita per 100 km. The exact opposite is a train consisting of high number of railcars and pulled by an electric locomotive. The main weakness of a plane is a taking-off manoeuvre. But taking account of distance, nothing is as flexible as a car.
actually passenger ships are the least fuel efficient.
__________________
Svaki dan sanjam autobahn...
x-type no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 09:46 PM   #35188
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,235
Likes (Received): 1751

Of course it all depends on occupancy. An empty articulated bus heading to a depot does not have good results either.

It could be comparable. For what I googled, I have found the average consumption of a cruise ship is 9 437 l per 100 km. The average capacity is about 3 000 passengers, which adds up to 3,14 l / passenger / 100 km. It is similar to a car occupied by two people.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 10:11 PM   #35189
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,805
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
The exact opposite is a train consisting of high number of railcars and pulled by an electric locomotive.
It is not that straightforward. The emissions depend on how the power is produced in the country where the train is operated. There are huge variation across countries. In Europe, there are only a few countries being almost self-contained in terms of emission-free electricity production: Switzerland and Norway for their hydropower, UK and France for the high share of nuclear power.

Our national rail operator VR says they are emission-free, because they run on hydropower. Howver, it is not true within the context of the nation-wide power mix: Because the availability of hydropower is limited, every kWh reserved for trains decreases the availability for other usage. Thus, running trains on emession-free energy does not reduce emissions on the national level.

For anyone interested in how countries produce their energy, I recommend visiting the Energy Trilemma Index at https://trilemma.worldenergy.org
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 10:13 PM   #35190
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

The reality is that most people don't really care about it. Fuel efficiency rarely makes it into the top 3 reasons to buy a specific car. Volkswagen continues to post good sales figures despite the dieselgate scandal, for example in diesel-crazy Belgium where Volkswagen sales are better than the national average.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 10:34 PM   #35191
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,805
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Of course it all depends on occupancy. An empty articulated bus heading to a depot does not have good results either.

It could be comparable. For what I googled, I have found the average consumption of a cruise ship is 9 437 l per 100 km. The average capacity is about 3 000 passengers, which adds up to 3,14 l / passenger / 100 km. It is similar to a car occupied by two people.
Safest not to compare apples to oranges. All the fuel is not used for moving the ship. Big fraction of the energy is used for kitchen, refrigeration, waste processing, illumination, heating, air conditioning, making warm water, etc. For example, m/s Silja Serenade, which is one of the ships on the Helsinki-Stockholm route, has diesel-operated power generators for total capacity of 14 MVA, which is quite much. The power consumption mix of a passenger car is quite different.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 11:15 PM   #35192
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,805
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The reality is that most people don't really care about it. Fuel efficiency rarely makes it into the top 3 reasons to buy a specific car. Volkswagen continues to post good sales figures despite the dieselgate scandal, for example in diesel-crazy Belgium where Volkswagen sales are better than the national average.
It depends...

Taxation is quite a powerful way to have an influence on the people's choices.

There is quite an interesting trend visible in Finland: Companies do their reputation management by pretending sustainable. They have started to put limits of the CO2 emissions of the company cars. (Not applicable to the top management, of course.) This is quite an inefficient way, because most people have an option to not have a company car.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2016, 11:40 PM   #35193
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Fiscal incentives are mostly for new cars, and in particular for company cars. I don't know about Finland, but in the Netherlands approximately 2.5 million cars are sold every year, but less than 150,000 of those are new, non-company cars.

The far majority buy a second-hand car, where the exact environmental specifications are less important for most people. They may not buy a car with very poor gas mileage, but otherwise the exact fuel economy is of secondary importance.

Larger family cars have a huge depreciation of value in the first few years. Why buy a € 35,000 car when you can buy a 5 or 6 year old model for € 12,000? (for example: Volkswagen Passat).
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 09:14 AM   #35194
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,235
Likes (Received): 1751

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Safest not to compare apples to oranges. All the fuel is not used for moving the ship. Big fraction of the energy is used for kitchen, refrigeration, waste processing, illumination, heating, air conditioning, making warm water, etc. For example, m/s Silja Serenade, which is one of the ships on the Helsinki-Stockholm route, has diesel-operated power generators for total capacity of 14 MVA, which is quite much. The power consumption mix of a passenger car is quite different.
True, but it is all "passenger service". Even fuel in your car is not used solely for moving the vehicle. Some energy is used for heating, some for electricity, some for air-condition, etc. Furthermore, there are restaurant cars included in train consists too. Okay, you don't have a swimming pool there or theatre, but...

I usually use trains for semi-long distances when I am travelling alone. It is cheap, comfortable and fast. You can also work during the journey. When I travel with someone, it is better to use a car. Train would not be that effective and you would not be much flexible either without a car.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 10:29 AM   #35195
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,805
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
True, but it is all "passenger service". Even fuel in your car is not used solely for moving the vehicle. Some energy is used for heating, some for electricity, some for air-condition, etc. Furthermore, there are restaurant cars included in train consists too. Okay, you don't have a swimming pool there or theatre, but...

I usually use trains for semi-long distances when I am travelling alone. It is cheap, comfortable and fast. You can also work during the journey. When I travel with someone, it is better to use a car. Train would not be that effective and you would not be much flexible either without a car.
If you need to compare apples to oranges, the proper set to compare could be the car trip plus a dinner in a restaurant plus a hotel night the breakfast included.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 11:10 AM   #35196
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21246

I wonder where signage madness is worse: Spain (with its 30 something prefixes, many of them repeated across regions/communities) or Italy (with oddities like SS3-bis or FI-PI-LI).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 11:33 AM   #35197
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,239
Likes (Received): 18303

Meanwhile in Romania...
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 11:49 AM   #35198
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,612
Likes (Received): 19400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I wonder where signage madness is worse: Spain (with its 30 something prefixes, many of them repeated across regions/communities) or Italy (with oddities like SS3-bis or FI-PI-LI).
There are much more than 30 prefixes in Spain. More like 100+. Asturias has a prefix for every municipality (there are 78 of them).

The large number of prefixes is also a result of a desire to number every possible road with a (mostly) unique number. For example in Germany these numbers are not indicated on the signage. In France they're just repeated in every department.

However, there is a system behind it, it is fairly consistently signed and in general the signage is better developed than in Italy (layout, control city usage, exit numbering, typeface, etc.) Signage in Italy is quite basic, not many countries copied it.

One thing I don't really like in Spain is their switch from the 'Autopista' font (Interstate/FHWA derivation) to the 'Carretera Convencional' font (Transport Heavy derivation). The Carretera Convencional font is not bad, but I think it has limited or no improvement over the Autopista font. It's too dense.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 11:59 AM   #35199
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21246

I think France has good color-coding but bad, very bad overuse of all caps.

On the other hand, France has really good touristic signage posted on autoroutes about the area you are crossing, they are the best in Europe in my opinion. It is not even a matter of directional indication on exits, but letting you know your general bearings on long drives. I like that and I wish more countries adopted similar practices (Germany uses them, but more sparsely and it doesn't look as good as the French).

source:Ecrivosges
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2016, 01:56 PM   #35200
VITORIA MAN
on skycrapercity
 
VITORIA MAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: vitoria
Posts: 8,397
Likes (Received): 14404

In extremadura region (E)
image hosted on flickr

http://images.eldiario.es/eldiarioex...18_0524_18.jpg

catalonia



http://sgirod.com/wp/wp-content/uplo...4-1024x768.jpg

castille and leon

http://interbenavente.es/upload/img/.../img_52314.jpg




i dont like the generic national one by fomento :

http://www.advaldepenas.com/media/ad...8045850437.jpg
__________________

cinxxx liked this post

Last edited by VITORIA MAN; December 31st, 2016 at 02:19 PM.
VITORIA MAN no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium