daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 2nd, 2017, 01:40 PM   #35221
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,804
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I loathe the idea of placing my butt and my hands in a place where another guy I don't know placed his for extensive periods of time. I had a used car more than 10 years ago, but I was young and my priorities were different.
Moreover, I don't trust nobody. Why should I entrust with my life a car that can have known problems, hidden by a dishonest seller? I feel safer on a new car.
I want to have the newest technologies to support driving safety in winter conditions. It is sad but true that the lifecycle of those technologies does not span across decades. A modern car contains cubic zillions of sensors. For a 10 years old wreck, nobody can know which sensors are defect and which ones still work. This aspect is very important on areas where the roads are kept open with salt all winter long.

Shrouds have no pockets.
__________________

g.spinoza liked this post
MattiG está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 2nd, 2017, 04:41 PM   #35222
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,607
Likes (Received): 19391

Sure, a second-hand car could have its defects. But the chance that such a defect would cost you more money than depreciation in the first few years is pretty much zero.

I don't understand why people are scared of the possible risk for a € 1000 repair on a second-hand car while are willing to accept a write off of € 15,000 - 20,000 on a new car in the first 4 or 5 years.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 04:51 PM   #35223
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

There is a market, after all, for people who want brand new cars so they can oversee its whole useful life until they sell it. That is not wrong on itself. What I found puzzling is exactly that some people want to defend brand new car ownership on the basis of the cash expenses that might be not easily detectable at purchase, while ignoring the relatively certain depreciation that comes with a new car.

Once again: there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with someone using one's money to buy a brand new car, and to accept the fast depreciation of driving out of the lot as one of the economic realities of car ownership. It just doesn't make sense to argue about possible hidden defects' costs without talking about depreciation.

In my field, there is even a technical name for that phenomenon - "mental accounting", or the behavioral pattern of humans integrating (perceived) gains and segregating (perceived) losses into different mental 'boxes', and making decisions accordingly.

A good and somehow car-related example is how many people go out of their way to fuel with cheaper gas, while ignoring altogether the costs of driving several km to a more distant gas station. Another one is how many people enter into financially bad 'phone lease plans', even when cash flow is not a problem for buying the phone separately from data subscription at same operator.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Sentilj liked this post
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 06:11 PM   #35224
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,503
Likes (Received): 2112

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Sure, a second-hand car could have its defects. But the chance that such a defect would cost you more money than depreciation in the first few years is pretty much zero.

I don't understand why people are scared of the possible risk for a € 1000 repair on a second-hand car while are willing to accept a write off of € 15,000 - 20,000 on a new car in the first 4 or 5 years.
Because 1- used cars have a higher risk of breaking on the way, ruining your vacations or your activities; 2- if a second-hand car needs a 1000€ repair, it is likely that it will need a second, a third, a fourth. If a new car breaks down, it is under warranty; 3- if someone sells his car, to me it means that it is not good any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Once again: there is nothing morally or ethically wrong with someone using one's money to buy a brand new car, and to accept the fast depreciation of driving out of the lot as one of the economic realities of car ownership. It just doesn't make sense to argue about possible hidden defects' costs without talking about depreciation.
Why not? If I buy a car is not for selling, it's for driving it until it doesn't go any more. In this context, depreciation is not relevant at all.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 06:27 PM   #35225
keokiracer
Roadgeek from NL
 
keokiracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Halsteren (NL)
Posts: 3,675
Likes (Received): 2629

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Because 1- used cars have a higher risk of breaking on the way, ruining your vacations or your activities;
Because new cars never break, and because every second-hand car is a complete piece of shit...
And also, if you drive your cars until they break like you do then your new car could ruin your vacation at some point too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
2- if a second-hand car needs a 1000€ repair, it is likely that it will need a second, a third, a fourth.
Based on what? Also, newsflash, new cars will also need repairs at some point.
Our previous car (1999 Honda Accord, not even second-hand but third-hand if that's even a term) had one repair worth of 500 euros in 5 years, and was then totalled when my dad got pushed into a gas station by a truck-driver not paying attention...
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
If a new car breaks down, it is under warranty;
Not always, some car companies have very short warranties, others have very long warranties, for example if you buy a 4 year old Kia you still have 3 years of warranty (providing that the car hasn't hit 150k in the previous 4 years)
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
3- if someone sells his car, to me it means that it is not good any more.
Yes, because it's impossible that people change cars for other reasons, like a kid on the way and needing more spacious car, or someone getting a lease-contract from work and therefor not needing his previous car, or getting a better job and being able to afford a bigger/more expensive car, or the other way around; losing ones job and therefor needing a cheaper car etc. etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Why not? If I buy a car is not for selling, it's for driving it until it doesn't go any more. In this context, depreciation is not relevant at all.
That's good for you, but not everyone is you and most people don't drive their cars until they break down. If everyone thought like you then every second-hand car would be a piece of shit, but that is simply not the case.
keokiracer está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 06:41 PM   #35226
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,607
Likes (Received): 19391

Perhaps the Italian used car market is a shady one, I don't know. Not all used cars are old wrecks.

Many recent model cars in fact come onto the market when their lease at the company is over. These cars are normally very good maintained.

If you buy a used car at a dealership or garage in the Netherlands, they often supply a 6-12 month warranty, even on cars whose original warranty has expired.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 08:02 PM   #35227
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Why not? If I buy a car is not for selling, it's for driving it until it doesn't go any more. In this context, depreciation is not relevant at all.
Does it mean keeping it for 20+ years until its only value is scrapyard? If so, I agree with you.

Otherwise, buying used cars might allow you, over you lifetime, for any given "total car purchase expense", to drive vehicles that on average are far newer than you'd afford buying new cars out of the dealership. I mean, if you buy 4-year old cars, use them 3 years, resell them, rinse and repeat, you'd often drive cars 5.5 years old, if you - for the same amount of money - buy new cars until they are clunkers, then you'd buy just 3, maybe 4, cars throughout your life, and the average age of your cars would be above 10 years.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 11:06 PM   #35228
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Perhaps the Italian used car market is a shady one, I don't know. Not all used cars are old wrecks.

Many recent model cars in fact come onto the market when their lease at the company is over. These cars are normally very good maintained.

If you buy a used car at a dealership or garage in the Netherlands, they often supply a 6-12 month warranty, even on cars whose original warranty has expired.
The European private and fleet market are rather two different worlds. Dacia is really rolling the private market with new cars in Europe. Shame, but understandable that those data are rarely presented apart.

The higher class cars in Europe start for most of the people indeed as second hand cars after the leasing is over. Those cars get a general service and refurbishment. So the choice for most European private buyers is either low class new car or 3-5 years old middle class second hand car.

However the second hand car market can be pretty tricky one as well. Crashed cars, cars with re-winded mileage clock, cars made out of stolen parts or of several old cars, etc etc... The less strong the purchasing power on a given market, the more of this you can find.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 11:14 PM   #35229
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

All in all, a efficient market should simply solve this. There might be a slight premium for riding a first owner car and some transaction costs and when buying a car (more cars you buy the more transaction costs you pay), but aside from that, the total costs should be quite similar over extended period of time equal to the average car lifetime.

If a car has a lifespan of 20 years, it should not really make that big difference on average cost wise, whether you ride it from year 1 till it dies, or whether you buy a second hand one every five years.

EDIT: those countries with high taxes on new cars will have a bit skewed perspective and the second hand cars may in the end look less costly. This is because the second hand car market is more or less a European car market, mainly thanks to very strong German second hand car market that sort of dictates the prices for the rest of the continent. Therefore the write offs in the countries with high taxes on new cars will be quite higher then in the other countries. Thus providing even more incentive to the private buyers to buy second hand.

Last edited by Surel; January 2nd, 2017 at 11:20 PM.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 11:23 PM   #35230
MichiH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lower Franconia
Posts: 4,408
Likes (Received): 2082

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
The European private and fleet market are rather two different worlds. Dacia is really rolling the private market with new cars in Europe. Shame, but understandable that those data are rarely presented apart.
German stats november 2016: http://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publika...cationFile&v=2 (page 20)

2/3 of all new cars are business cars, 1/3 private.

Business share was 15.3% for Dacia only but 78.8% for Nissan from January to November 2016.
Audi 77.3%, Opel 76.4%, VW 68.7%, Ford 68.6%, BMW 68.2%, Mercedes 63.6%, Skoda 60.5%.
__________________

Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

** Please help completing and updating of the list **

Been/driven: A, AND, B, CDN, CH, CZ, D, DK, E, EST, F, FIN, FL, GB, H, I, L, LV, LT, N, NL, P, PL, RO, S, SLO, USA (My cumulative travel mapping)

Surel liked this post
MichiH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 11:34 PM   #35231
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2155

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
German stats november 2016: http://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Publika...cationFile&v=2 (page 20)

2/3 of all new cars are business cars, 1/3 private.

Business share was 15.3% for Dacia only but 78.8% for Nissan from January to November 2016.
Audi 77.3%, Opel 76.4%, VW 68.7%, Ford 68.6%, BMW 68.2%, Mercedes 63.6%, Skoda 60.5%.
Yeah, Dacia sells more cars on the private market than Renault apparently.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 2nd, 2017, 11:59 PM   #35232
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,804
Likes (Received): 618

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Sure, a second-hand car could have its defects. But the chance that such a defect would cost you more money than depreciation in the first few years is pretty much zero.

I don't understand why people are scared of the possible risk for a € 1000 repair on a second-hand car while are willing to accept a write off of € 15,000 - 20,000 on a new car in the first 4 or 5 years.
The world is not that black and white. There are other values and decisions points than money, too.
__________________

g.spinoza liked this post
MattiG está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 12:51 AM   #35233
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

You also need to consider that richer European countries feed a tertiary market of cars used twice (once as company fleet, second as private vehicle) in places like Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Morocco...
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 12:52 AM   #35234
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

I have 4 job interviews in February in Bergen (N), Helsinki (FI), Milano (I) and Fointanbleau (F).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

g.spinoza, DanielFigFoz liked this post
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 03:41 AM   #35235
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,375
Likes (Received): 748

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
You also need to consider that richer European countries feed a tertiary market of cars used twice (once as company fleet, second as private vehicle) in places like Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Morocco...
Used car exports are a really interesting and I think understudied topic
You hear sometimes of the Japanese used cars turning up in all places like Eastern Russia and other locales with LHD

But there are a lot of exports from EU and USA too...
__________________
100 coups de fouet, si vous n'ętes pas morts de rire !
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 05:06 AM   #35236
aubergine72
Registered User
 
aubergine72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,021



What's so interesting about it. In the US used cars are a huge market.
aubergine72 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 05:15 AM   #35237
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,375
Likes (Received): 748

No I mean the export of used cars from the US to be sold in other countries e.g. Mexico or Russia, etc
__________________
100 coups de fouet, si vous n'ętes pas morts de rire !
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 10:28 AM   #35238
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,503
Likes (Received): 2112

Oh gosh, can't I just hate old cars? I'm not trying to convince you but you are trying to convince me. To me, old cars are shit and everybody who sits on the sit used by someone else in years is disgusting. To you it's different? Good for you.
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 01:34 PM   #35239
keokiracer
Roadgeek from NL
 
keokiracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Halsteren (NL)
Posts: 3,675
Likes (Received): 2629

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
To me, old cars are shit and everybody who sits on the sit used by someone else in years is disgusting. To you it's different? Good for you.
If that's what you think then good for you, but stop projecting. I really don't understand why you think that people sitting on a seat that other people used to sit on are disgusting. I take it you never take public transport either? because those chairs don't have one person sitting on them for years, they have thousands of asses on them in their lifetime.
You know you can clean those seats, right?
keokiracer está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2017, 01:54 PM   #35240
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,457
Likes (Received): 2185

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
No I mean the export of used cars from the US to be sold in other countries e.g. Mexico or Russia, etc
Or Turkey. There was the story of an American plumber who found his old van with his name written on it in a ISIS propaganda video.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium