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Old January 3rd, 2017, 02:04 PM   #35241
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Oh gosh, can't I just hate old cars? I'm not trying to convince you but you are trying to convince me. To me, old cars are shit and everybody who sits on the sit used by someone else in years is disgusting. To you it's different? Good for you.
Hygiene is not the biggest concern, you can clean and sanitize seats with chemicals or hot vapor. Your own car will get dirty too, as you sit on it after sitting on buses, trains, bars, restaurants, benches, and you probably give lifts to other people sometimes.
The biggest issues are repairs. An old car is like a surprise box, you don't know if it has/had some issues, if it has been properly repaired/maintained, if it had been involved in accidents, if it was fitted with non-original spare parts, if the odometer has been taken back, etc... A modern car is made by thousands of mechanical and electronic components, each of them can have some faults, that often aren't easy to detect soon.
A first-hand car can give problems too, of course, but if you know what issues has, repair it properly, and keep it regularly controlled, chances for unexpected problems are lower.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 02:50 PM   #35242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
If that's what you think then good for you, but stop projecting. I really don't understand why you think that people sitting on a seat that other people used to sit on are disgusting. I take it you never take public transport either? because those chairs don't have one person sitting on them for years, they have thousands of asses on them in their lifetime.
You know you can clean those seats, right?
I take public transport regularly, but I don't sit too often and sanitize my hands thoroughly afterwards.
Besides, it's not MY bus. My things must be different.
Hygiene is not my first concern with cars, as a matter of fact. First one is repairs, then, I like new things, third is hygiene. Fourth is probably that I can decide exactly what to have in it and not just settle for what I find on sale. Lastly, I don't have time, nor will, to look at a lot of ads and go personally visit every potential car and have a test drive. I have a life.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 03:12 PM   #35243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I take public transport regularly, but I don't sit too often and sanitize my hands thoroughly afterwards.
Alright, so sanitize your car chair(s) afterwards and you have the same result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Fourth is probably that I can decide exactly what to have in it and not just settle for what I find on sale.
Things might be different in Italy, but there is so much being offered here in NL that that's not an issue unless you have very weird and specific requests (for example some people who lease decide to not get AC in the car but do get CruiseControl). And if you live near the border like me you can always look abroad as well (though that comes with importing-paperwork)
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Lastly, I don't have time, nor will, to look at a lot of ads and go personally visit every potential car and have a test drive. I have a life.
lol, it's so clear that you've never ever searched for a second-hand car. The previous car my parents got was the first one they visited, the current one as well, for the neighbours on my left is was the 2nd car they visited and for the neighbours on the right it was the first car they visited.
By looking critically at the ad and the pictures in the ads you can very quickly see what is a pile of crap and what is worth coming over for. Common sense and critical thinking gets you far. Other than that, websites that allow you to sell cars (like marktplaats, or autoscout and many many more) have a massive amount of criteria you can enter to make the searching easier. You barely do the searching, the internet does it for you.
But tapping into what you said about not having the time or will to look at cars, does this mean that you just willy-nilly pick a new car without test-driving it? Cause that's pretty dumb imo. Whether it's a new or a tenth-hand car, always test-drive.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 03:42 PM   #35244
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I also prefer new cars. I can even renounce some equipment just to make it affordable. It might not be very economical, but whatever.

I remember that pretty much always when we were selling our car, it was due to failures that were not worth repairing. The same now. My car has 200.000 km and 10 years. Last year, I spent 2.300 € to repairs. Every month some stupid failure indicator started shining or flashing or beeping and there was not a single repair below 100 €. It is not sustainable and I can't wait to get rid of this car. But, imagine there will be someone who buy this kinder surprise and will be supposed to pay for these repairs instead of me.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 03:48 PM   #35245
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That's good for you, but not everyone is you and most people don't drive their cars until they break down. If everyone thought like you then every second-hand car would be a piece of shit, but that is simply not the case.
Almost every second-hand car driven previously in Italy can be considered a piece of shit.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 03:55 PM   #35246
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Almost every second-hand car driven previously in Italy can be considered a piece of shit.
Ah, well I guess that explains a lot, since spinoza is looking at this from an Italian perspective of 'all second-hand cars are shit' and I'm looking at this from Dutch perspective where that is certainly not the case. My neighbours (on the left) bought their car for 250 euros (1998 Seat Ibiza) and haven't had any issues in a year and a half.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 04:05 PM   #35247
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I feel that all used cars are grouped here into one pile of 'unreliable junk'. There's so much different flavors of used cars and one should have their expectations accordingly.

Not every used car is a 10 year old one with 200,000 km on its odometer. You can expect to find wear and tear on a car that will cost you € 1,000 or 2,000, but at the same time there are many perfectly fine cars available for € 10,000. The possibilities are almost as endless as ordering a new one from the factory.

I do see the appeal of driving a brand new model with all the latest equipment. But it's not like a 3-5 year old used car is automatically a clunker.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 06:57 PM   #35248
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My previous car was a rental car. It was in use for 2 months only, 17,000km. I had to pay 2/3 compared to a brand-new car. I never had any problem with this 2nd hand car, just ordinary replacements like tires and brakes. 10 years later, I had a puncture. It happened while driving 200km/h in a curve. On Autobahn. Afterwards, I always heard noise everywhere in this damn car and didn't feel good while driving anymore**. I even hated driving.

Then, I drove a rental car on a 300km trip. It was the same model like my own car but the next generation. I liked driving the car. Even some nice features. I selected online my prefered features and decided to buy a 2.0l engine instead of 1.0l like the rental car. There was even a 3,000 € sales discount. I went to my car dealer and asked about the price for that car. Got a little more discount and 1,800 € for my old car ("Car is done. We cannot sell it in Germany but to Poland"). I went there again one week later and ordered the car. I love driving again, 40,000km in 6 months just for leisure


Edit: **The car was still safe but it was old. And expensive repairs were pending...
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 07:25 PM   #35249
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Not every used car is a 10 year old one with 200,000 km on its odometer.
Sure. In many of them the odometer was tracked back. Even her in Germany. All experts in Hungary agree that at least 50 percent of used cars in Hungary has ad odometer which was tracked back, and at least 80 percent of imported used cars have one.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 07:44 PM   #35250
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The last 3 cars that my parents bought before I turned 18 were all brand new, event through they were a lower class car (Dacia SuperNova, Renault Clio, Chevrolet Aveo). They haven't had any major issues with them during the time they have owned them. Therefore, it got also into my head that a new car is better, as you avoid some issues that usually come with a second hand one.

After I moved to Austria I needed to buy myself a good, reliable car, which I would use a lot on the motorway (I drive between Austria and Romania every month + many roadtrips). Therefore, I needed something larger than the Chevrolet Aveo that I have rented for a limited time from my parents. I didn't have the budget for a larger, but new car, so I went for a second hand one. I have bought a 1.5 years old Ford Focus, with 50.000 km, which I still drive today. The car was almost 10.000 Euro cheaper like that compared to a new one. Now, after 58.000 km driven just by me, the car runs great and I am very happy with the decision.

In about 1 or 2 years' time I will need to change it (when it reaches somewhere around 150-200.000 km). I have still not decided if I should invest in a new car, which I should keep longer, or if I should search for a second hand car, not older than 2 years and under 50.000 km, which is actually almost as good as a new one. Both options come with pros and cons and there is no straightforward answer on which is better. It's not black or white, but a very gray area, and each person has to decide for himself what is it better for him, depending on his particular needs and preferences. In the end, if there wouldn't be people in both categories there would be a big issue for the people in the other category (if you buy a new car you cannot re-sell it, or if you want a second-hand one you cannot find one).

@Spinoza: you wrote in a previous post that your next car will be a suv/crossover (like Hyundai Tucson, Ford Kuga or similar). Why are you considering this type of car?

My parents have recently bought a brand new Mazda CX-3. It's a small sized city crossover. It runs very good (like a new car) and also looks very good (it's the only car I have ever driven where I notice people staring at the car on the street). However, for the same amount of money I would have bought either a better-equipped hatchback (like Mazda 3) or a more entry-level larger car (like a Mazda 6). They just said that they always wanted a crossover for the higher driving position and this was a very good option for them.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 07:54 PM   #35251
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Quote:
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Sure. In many of them the odometer was tracked back. Even her in Germany. All experts in Hungary agree that at least 50 percent of used cars in Hungary has ad odometer which was tracked back, and at least 80 percent of imported used cars have one.
Well that's why you need a good registration of odometers. Otherwise it's wide open to fraud.

The Netherlands has mandated all certificated garages to log odometer kilometrage every time a car enters a garage for repair, maintenance, recall, etc - since 1991.

So the number of cars with rewound odometers is very small, you can easily check if the kilometrage is logical. If it is not available, the car has likely not entered a certificated garage, so one should steer clear of it.

It is estimated that nowadays only 2% of the cars have rewound odometers / fabricated odometer kilometrage.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:17 PM   #35252
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When you drive on the motorway from Berlin towards Warsaw, shortly after entering Poland, you can even see billboards advertising "odometer correction" services...

The official explanation why such a service is offered is to set the proper value on the odometer when you replace it because of its failure.

In 2014 the odometer indications started to be registered in Poland during technical checkups, and these data are accessible online after entering the basic car data (license plate number, VIN and the date of the first registration). So, at least, it cannot be "corrected" when someone sells the car within the country.

The problem is that a vast majority of cars in Poland is imported from Germany as second-hand and if the odometer gets corrected after it leaves Germany, but before it gets registered in Poland, nobody will see it.

Do you mean "certificated garages" as official garages of the car companies (like Ford, Opel etc.) or do you have a national certification system in the country? If it's the first thing - in Poland people service their cars in such garages usually only in the warranty period, because they are expensive in comparison with independent garages and their quality of service often isn't actually good. If it's the second thing - maybe it would work if the number of garages with the official certification was high and the prices were low (it would be a good idea anyway, helping to eradicate garages that have no registered company and pay no taxes - using legal garages would be much more advantageous than now). But since even now there are companies that are specialized exactly in "correcting" odometers - those companies would just go underground and there would be a black market.

Registering the odometer indication at a yearly technical checkup was actually the best idea one could come up with. Now it has to be extended to the EU scale, let it be so that when a car gets unregistered in one country, a certificate with the kilometrage is issued and only with this certificate it is possible to register it in another country. In such a case, if the system in Germany has no weak points, there will be no way to do anything with the odometer indication.

Last edited by Kpc21; January 3rd, 2017 at 08:25 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:18 PM   #35253
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The fake odometers is a big issue also in Romania, especially with the cars that are bought from Germany and re-sold on the Romanian market. The chances are very big that the odometer will be fake. The dealers importing cars (most of them private individuals) have gone so far as faking the entire service records of the cars so that, at least on their papers, the car looks clean.

What Europe needs is a EU-widespread system of recording the car's odometer every time it enters a garage (like Chris said it is in NL) + every time you make the annual car inspection + every time the car had an accident (accident details and damages to be included) etc. All this data should be stored in a single location which should be available online at any time to be checked by a potential car buyer. This way it would be nearly impossible to fake a car's history, which means that the EU second-hand car market would be a correct one.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:19 PM   #35254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Netherlands has mandated all certificated garages to log odometer kilometrage every time a car enters a garage for repair, maintenance, recall, etc - since 1991.
Hungary has had a similar low, but only since 2011. However many used cars are imported from Western Europe, they are of course not logged in Hungary.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:31 PM   #35255
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Well, it's interesting to see this discussion point out the potential problems - or not - of used cars. Evidently there are large differences between European countries.

In the Netherlands it's pretty safe to buy a recent model used car, with very tight regulations and registration of odometer reads, well-maintained cars coming from the company car market, so it's not a scam like in Italy where by g.spinoza's account, a used car must have something wrong with it, or in eastern EU where odometer rewind is daily business for imported cars.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 09:17 PM   #35256
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They just said that they always wanted a crossover for the higher driving position and this was a very good option for them.
A good choice. I prefer entering a car to crawling into it.

Modern sedans are peculiarly low, and crawling into them is kind of an acrobatics show.

Last year, my Citroën Grand C4 Picasso was hit by a lady driving behind me. During the reparation works, I drove a Mercedes-Benz A200, the latest model. I did not understand that car at all. It is 143 cm tall, one centimeter taller than Fiat Uno from 1980's. If the seat was in a comfortable position, my legs did not reach the pedals. When I moved the seat ahead to reach the pedals, the steering wheel was almost in my mouth. The driving position was utterly uncomfortable. Picasso is 20 cm taller, and that makes a big difference.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 09:34 PM   #35257
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I like my low driving position in my Focus. My dad tried it few days ago and said that he felt like 'his ass was touching the asphalt'.

This is too a personal preference and varies from person to person (it also depends on the person's size... if you are tall or short).
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 11:23 PM   #35258
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My previous car was a rental car. It was in use for 2 months only, 17,000km. I had to pay 2/3 compared to a brand-new car. I never had any problem with this 2nd hand car, just ordinary replacements like tires and brakes. 10 years later, I had a puncture. It happened while driving 200km/h in a curve. On Autobahn. Afterwards, I always heard noise everywhere in this damn car and didn't feel good while driving anymore**. I even hated driving.

Then, I drove a rental car on a 300km trip. It was the same model like my own car but the next generation. I liked driving the car. Even some nice features. I selected online my prefered features and decided to buy a 2.0l engine instead of 1.0l like the rental car. There was even a 3,000 € sales discount. I went to my car dealer and asked about the price for that car. Got a little more discount and 1,800 € for my old car ("Car is done. We cannot sell it in Germany but to Poland"). I went there again one week later and ordered the car. I love driving again, 40,000km in 6 months just for leisure


Edit: **The car was still safe but it was old. And expensive repairs were pending...
2 months and 17k km is a de facto new car. For 2/3 of the price it seems a good deal. It's not like 5 y.o. cars that Chris was talking about, that while they may not be old wretches, they aren't new either.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 11:26 PM   #35259
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Aparently, 40% of second-hand cars sold in Italy have the odometer tracked back.
http://www.6sicuro.it/auto/auto-usat...etri-manomessi
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old January 3rd, 2017, 11:47 PM   #35260
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Do you mean "certificated garages" as official garages of the car companies (like Ford, Opel etc.) or do you have a national certification system in the country? If it's the first thing - in Poland people service their cars in such garages usually only in the warranty period, because they are expensive in comparison with independent garages and their quality of service often isn't actually good. If it's the second thing - maybe it would work if the number of garages with the official certification was high and the prices were low (it would be a good idea anyway, helping to eradicate garages that have no registered company and pay no taxes - using legal garages would be much more advantageous than now).
Certificated garages in the Netherlands can be anything, from official dealerships to independent garages to repair shops. They are certificated by the department of motor vehicles and/or an organization called 'BOVAG'. In addition to being certificated, used cars over € 4,500 come with a six month warranty, regardless of age or if the original warranty has expired.

So if you're in the market for a used car in the Netherlands, these certificated garages are the place to go to. These are generally reputable businesses, though it is known that official dealerships are generally more expensive.

Of course you can buy cars at more shady businesses or directly from another person, but there are less guarantees. Most car sales in those circles are old cars with low value, I wouldn't recommend it if you're looking for a recent model.
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