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Old January 21st, 2017, 05:14 PM   #35421
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This idea of relying only on local ingredients is arbitrary and luddist. It negates 150 years of agricultural and transportation progress. If anyone really wants to make the embedded energy argument to determine diets, fine, but go vegetarian then, as the embedded energy on meat dwarfs anything remotely close to greenhouses growing avocados in central Sweden.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 06:02 PM   #35422
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I don't think you are right... The apples which are not damaged in any way e.g. by insects, not rotten and which have no bruises, can be stored for winter in a standard home cellar.
Of course you can store them for many months, my family (who live in rural France) store their apples the same way.... But not that long, they only last a few months and their appearance is not the same, they look old, tired (which is perfectly normal) unlike those who received the treatment... And at the end we mainly use them for compote/marmelade because they are no longer very good to eat fresh...

You can't keep those organic apples more than a few months which is normal and natural...
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Old January 21st, 2017, 06:09 PM   #35423
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Quote:
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This idea of relying only on local ingredients is arbitrary and luddist. It negates 150 years of agricultural and transportation progress. If anyone really wants to make the embedded energy argument to determine diets, fine, but go vegetarian then, as the embedded energy on meat dwarfs anything remotely close to greenhouses growing avocados in central Sweden.
There is no real "physiological" need to eat such products off season, they don't really provide you more nutriments than the one you can find in seasonal fruits and vegetables, and they are more treated than seasonal products and less riche in nutrients, so it's a bad calcul...

Of course we shouldn't eat so much meat, it wasn't the subjet but yes meat is terrible (I personally don't eat meat more than once or twice a week and I'm perfectly fine )

Yes, there's always many ways to look at such thing... Where you see progress, I see a massive waste for nothing (like most of what we are currently doing)... But that’s only my own point of view...
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Old January 21st, 2017, 06:10 PM   #35424
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But what seasonal fruits and vegetables do you find in winter?
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Old January 21st, 2017, 06:17 PM   #35425
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But what seasonal fruits and vegetables do you find in winter?
For example : http://www.cooksmarts.com/wp-content..._Draft3-01.png (for the US but it should be very similar for Europe).

Of course there is much less products than in summer but you can still find some cheap and seasonal products like carots, cabbages, etc...

With fruits :

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5d068c0a5f.jpg
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Old January 21st, 2017, 06:23 PM   #35426
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Eating local would me Europeans foregoing tropical fruits altogether, for instance.
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Old January 21st, 2017, 06:45 PM   #35427
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Eating local would me Europeans foregoing tropical fruits altogether, for instance.
It depends which. Bananas and avocado are growing relatively easily and can be shipped worldwide by boat and being matured localy before being sold without effort, that’s why bananas (and now avocados) are so cheap... But some others true tropical fruits are very sensitive and are shipped by air and in that case, yes, the environmental impact is terrible. For example now in Romanian supermarkets I see some south-american blueberries, that’s terrible...
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Old January 21st, 2017, 07:31 PM   #35428
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I think the impact of transport is being overstated, after all, look at the price you are paying... if it is not a lot of money, the resources consumed to make the product must be very small, and so, the impact must be very little. Much like you note of bananas, they grow with such little effort in tropical lands (not much energy), the energy to transport them on a ship is not much either...

as for meat, must also not forget your health
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Old January 21st, 2017, 11:45 PM   #35429
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If 16 young people die in a bus accident (details in the Italian thread), there are thousands of people who knew at least one of them. And possibly a million, who know at least one of those thousands.
Two of my friends lost a friend this morning.
Hungary has a deep grief.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 12:35 AM   #35430
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Of course there is much less products than in summer but you can still find some cheap and seasonal products like carots, cabbages, etc...
Well, rather not in the areas with temperatures below 0 Celsius in winter.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 01:39 AM   #35431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
For example : http://www.cooksmarts.com/wp-content..._Draft3-01.png (for the US but it should be very similar for Europe).

Of course there is much less products than in summer but you can still find some cheap and seasonal products like carots, cabbages, etc...

With fruits :

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5d068c0a5f.jpg
Sigh...

Big variations in the annual length of growing season exist both in the US and Europe:





Even if vegetables and fruit grow year-round in some areas of the US, they do not grow everywhere. Thus, there is need for intra-US transportation. Transporting a truckful of tomatoes from Louisiana to Montana is not more ecological than a similar truck on its way from Spain to Sweden.

As you see, most of the Nordics to the north of the Oslo-Stockholm-Helsinki line lie on very challenging area. The growing season in the south Finland is about 6 months and in the north about 3.5 months. In the off-season time, nothing grows, except in glasshouses with huge energy consumption.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 06:44 AM   #35432
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I wonder how much weather variation I will experience if I move to Bergen and travel on daily road trips to the hinterland.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 10:01 AM   #35433
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I wonder how much weather variation I will experience if I move to Bergen and travel on daily road trips to the hinterland.
You will. The weather at the Northern Atlantic is unstable and may change quickly. The variations in the length of the growing season are more or less about altitude. At the ocean-facing seaside, the climate is mild (and wet) year around. The more you go inlands, the more continental the climate gets, even at the fjord ends. The tree line lies at about 500 meters at the seaside and about 1000 m inlands. There is a lot of snow at mountains. Thus better to get familiar with winter driving.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 10:05 AM   #35434
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The tree line lies at about 500 meters at the seaside and about 1000 m inlands.
Sure?
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 10:59 AM   #35435
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Sure?
Why not?
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 11:19 AM   #35436
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Yep, mountains are mostly treeless over 500 meters near Bergen, but at Hardangervidda they grow up to 1000 m. Farther north the treeline is even lower (and I don't necessarily mean Nordland or Troms, but also near Ålesund). In Møre og Romsdal or Sogn og Fjordane, 1500 meter high mountains look similar to 3500+ m in the Alps.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 12:00 PM   #35437
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Yep, mountains are mostly treeless over 500 meters near Bergen, but at Hardangervidda they grow up to 1000 m. Farther north the treeline is even lower (and I don't necessarily mean Nordland or Troms, but also near Ålesund). In Møre og Romsdal or Sogn og Fjordane, 1500 meter high mountains look similar to 3500+ m in the Alps.
Bergen lies at the latitude 60, thus being located relatively south. The tree line drops gradually to about 500 meters at the latitude of Troms, and approaches zero at the coast of Arctic Ocean. Again, at the coast side it is lower because of windy conditions. That tree limit refers to birch. The tree line of pine and spruce is lower.

Some of the last spruces at 21/E8 in Muonio, Finland. Altitude 250 meters:

https://www.google.com/maps/@68.0789...7i13312!8i6656
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 06:22 PM   #35438
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Quote:
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As you see, most of the Nordics to the north of the Oslo-Stockholm-Helsinki line lie on very challenging area. The growing season in the south Finland is about 6 months and in the north about 3.5 months. In the off-season time, nothing grows, except in glasshouses with huge energy consumption.
I used to live in Tartu quite close to a bunch of greenhouses where they grow vegetables all year round. Those cucumbers cost €5/kg at the moment whereas cucumbers that have been transported 4,000 km from Spain cost € 2,5/kg.

The light pollution at those greenhouses is insane and there aren't even that many of them, 6 hectares in total. The energy consumption at full power is 10 MW. In comparison, the electricity consumption of the whole country rarely exceeds 1,500 MW.

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Old January 22nd, 2017, 06:37 PM   #35439
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Nighttime sky in western Netherlands due to greenhouses:

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Old January 23rd, 2017, 11:14 AM   #35440
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Quote:
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Nighttime sky in western Netherlands due to greenhouses:
There is a concentration of glasshouse farming in Närpiö in Finland. The population of the area is about 9500. In the global light pollution map, we can see that Närpiö is a better landmark to the air traffic than the city of Vaasa 70 km to the north, population 68,000.

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