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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #35461
italystf
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Most of Austria-Hungary is now part of EU, with the exceptions of Bosnia, Vojvodina, and Ruthenia.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 03:44 AM   #35462
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Most of Austria-Hungary is now part of EU, with the exceptions of Bosnia, Vojvodina, and Ruthenia.
and north Montenegrin coast
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Old February 5th, 2017, 12:46 PM   #35463
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Maybe it is good that the AH dissolved in times we did not know anything about genocide or something. Of course there were some cases of oppression against some nations, but it was rather political than physical. And for what I've read, it was more struggle between different societal classes than nations or religions.

For example, I do not think that Slovaks hated Hungarians because they were Hungarians, but because they were representatives of intelligence, townsmen and had the real political power.

But if the state had survived WW1 I think the whole knowledge level would have risen anyway and it could have ended even worse. Yugoslavia is a good example and it was in terms of lingual structure more homogeneous country after all.

The country would have been too heterogeneous even regarding the economical power (rich west would have felt to subsidize the poor east and the poor east would envy the west for the richness) or educational background (the educational level and literacy in The Cisleithania was not comparable with The Transleithania). In the time of Czechoslovakia sovereignty, the literacy rate in Ruthenia was 5 %. It would led to bringing up a lot of topics concerning different nations feeling aggrieved.

Not good at all. As I said, despite the cultural homogeneity (there are different distinct similar traditions in current countries the AH was made up by) the country would have been much more heterogeneous than Yugoslavia and we all saw how it ended up.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 01:14 PM   #35464
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Italian population under Austrian rule fought for self-determination since the 1820s, when Austria also controlled Lombardy (lost to Sardinia Kingdom in 1859) and Veneto and Friuli (lost to Italy in 1866). In 1866, 99.99% of voters (only male 21 y.o. and older had the right to vote) from Veneto and Friuli voted to join Italy.
However, in Trentino, Trieste and Istria, part of ethnically-Italian population, supported Austrian rule until WWI.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; February 5th, 2017 at 01:22 PM.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 01:30 PM   #35465
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So much of 19th and 20th century European history is not or only very briefly taught in Dutch schools. As World War I did not directly affect the Netherlands, coverage of it in history class was quite limited. I think the Austro-Hungarian Empire was mentioned once or twice. The Ottoman Empire was also very briefly touched upon, but not much more than Ottoman Empire = Turkey while in fact the Ottoman Empire was much larger than present-day Turkey.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 01:51 PM   #35466
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It is pity because I think it was one of the most interesting units at all. De facto the prototype of European Union in times when people did not (have enough experiences to) appreciate the idea. Also the country was very weak, I think there was very limited pride or determination for the country. Hence it was sometimes called (at least in Slovakia or Czech republic) "The prison of nations".
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Old February 5th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #35467
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It is pity because I think it was one of the most interesting units at all. De facto the prototype of European Union in times when people did not (have enough experiences to) appreciate the idea. Also the country was very weak, I think there was very limited pride or determination for the country. Hence it was sometimes called (at least in Slovakia or Czech republic) "The prison of nations".
The difference with the European Union is that EU is a sort confederation of sovereign countries, where each of them has its own representatives in EU institutions (although bigger and richer countries have still more decisional weight).
A-H, instead, was ruled by two dominants ethnic groups (one before 1867), with other groups (that, together, were the majority) not being represented in istitutions and not being granted any self-rule.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old February 5th, 2017, 02:08 PM   #35468
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Well. For us, Poles, Austria-Hungary was one of the three occupants, next to Germany and Russia, but the one which gave us most liberty of all of them. Germans and Russians were doing everything to kill the Polish national identity and the language, while in the Austro-Hungarian part, our culture could develop more or less freely.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 02:12 PM   #35469
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So much of 19th and 20th century European history is not or only very briefly taught in Dutch schools. As World War I did not directly affect the Netherlands, coverage of it in history class was quite limited. I think the Austro-Hungarian Empire was mentioned once or twice. The Ottoman Empire was also very briefly touched upon, but not much more than Ottoman Empire = Turkey while in fact the Ottoman Empire was much larger than present-day Turkey.
There are many aspects that are only briefly mentioned in history classes here.
WWI is mostly centered to Italian history, followed by the Western Front, with only vague mentions to the Eastern Front.
WWII is mostly European-centered, with only vague mentions to the Pacific theatre (except Pearl Harbour and Hiroshima/Nagasaki). Also some WWII events in Europe (like those involving Northern or Eastern Europe) are only briefly introduced.
Another problem is that in many schools there's no time to teach contemporary history all the way to the 2000s, so they end at WWII or at its immediate afterward (like peace treaties, Marshall plan, beginning of Cold War, decolonization, and establishment of Italian republic). So, kids often don't learn the most recent history, that is essential to understand present-day geopolitical events.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 02:47 PM   #35470
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I agree, when I was in high school in the early 2000s, the only post-World War II subjects were the Marshall Plan, women emancipation and Dutch politics, but generally nothing beyond 1960.

Important western subjects like the American Civil War or racial segregration in the U.S. were omitted entirely. Colonial history was also confined to the Netherlands' most recent colonies (nothing on Brazil or Taiwan for example).

But of course, time is limited and there are countless subjects to teach. They have to make a selection. I've learned more about history through Wikipedia than during high school.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 03:32 PM   #35471
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Quote:
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Well. For us, Poles, Austria-Hungary was one of the three occupants, next to Germany and Russia, but the one which gave us most liberty of all of them. Germans and Russians were doing everything to kill the Polish national identity and the language, while in the Austro-Hungarian part, our culture could develop more or less freely.
that was the case for all nations inside of AH Empire with exception of Austrians and Hungarians themselves because they ruled, and all other nations felt like being oppressed, used and depreciated, although both culture and economy were growing more than in case of self-independencies.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 03:35 PM   #35472
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Another problem is that in many schools there's no time to teach contemporary history all the way to the 2000s, so they end at WWII or at its immediate afterward (like peace treaties, Marshall plan, beginning of Cold War, decolonization, and establishment of Italian republic). So, kids often don't learn the most recent history, that is essential to understand present-day geopolitical events.
Same in Poland.

Fortunately, in my case, the teacher found the time to cover the period after the WW2 (actually two teachers, because the course of history was actually repeated three times in our school system when I was at school, each time with more detail and with focus on other aspects) - but I often read that they usually have not enough time for that. Maybe now it's better, once they reduced it to the course of history repeated only two times.

Our school system looks like:
1. primary school - 6 years
2. gymnasium (being kind of an extension of primary school) - 3 years
3. than the student has choice between 3 kinds of school, they can last from 2 to 4 years (I went to lyceum/high school which was 3 years)
now it's gonna be converted to:
1. primary school - 8 years
2. choice between 3 kinds of school - from 3 to 5 years, if I am not mistaken

When I was at school, we had the course of history in primary school (in the years from 4 to 6), then repeated in gymnasium, then repeated in lyceum. A few years ago they changed it so that it's two times: in primary school, and then in gymnasium, if I remember well, to the beginning of the WW2, and then contiuned one year in lyceum (or another school one goes to).

But, it seems for me (maybe I am wrong) that in our case, as a post-communist country, there were more historically important events after the WW2 than in case of the western-European countries. All the changes in different communist "eras" - before and after the death of Stalin, under the rule of different communist leaders in Poland, as well as all the anti-communist strikes and actions of the anti-communist opposition (and the governmental oppression against them) and finally the creation of free government in 1989. The changes in the other post-communist countries were also discussed, but in much less detail.

Talking about the western countries after 1989, actually, not much was said.

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that was the case for all nations inside of AH Empire with exception of Austrians and Hungarians themselves because they ruled, and all other nations felt like being oppressed, used and depreciated, although both culture and economy were growing more than in case of self-independencies.
Not in the Polish part. As we were divided between Austria (later Austro-Hungary), Prussia (later Germany) and Russia, we had more freedom and little oppression in Austro-Hungary, but economically, it was the poorest part. The industry developed mostly in the part ruled by Russia, the agriculture in the German part, while in the Austro-Hungarian part, there was no much development.

Last edited by Kpc21; February 5th, 2017 at 03:44 PM.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 03:54 PM   #35473
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I was born and grew up in Hungary. No surprise we learned a lot about the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy* and World War I. On the other side we hardly learned anything about the Netherlands and Belgium. OK, the history of them is complicated enough :-)

I'm a bit older than Chris (I was in high school between 1988-92), for us history lessions ended in 1956.
A small notice: the Austro-Hungarian state was fonded in 1867. After the so called Compromise of the Austrian emperor and several Hungarian leaders the Emperor was crowned as king of Hungary and Hungary got an own government, having Gyula Andrássy as prime minister.
Francis Joseph got the title "by Grace of God Emperor of Austria and Apostolic King of Hungary".

* Austria was ruled by an emperor, Hungary by a king. Actually the very same person, but two different titles. That's why everything was "imperial and royal", i.e. "kaiserlich und königlich", "k.u.k.". The only single word wich described that country was "monarchy". In German it was called "Österreischisch-ungarische Monarchie", in Hungarian "Osztrák-magyar monarchia" both mean literally "Austro-Hungarian Monarchy". For Hungary and Hungarians it was important that our nation was not ruled by the Austrian Emperor any more but we had a Hungarian King (the same person, but even so, an evidence of Hungarian self-reliance).
In English it is often called as Austro-Hungarian Empire, however such a name is not acceptable in Hungary. Funny, but since there is not any other "monarchy", every other country is either an empire, or a kingdom or a duchy, etc., the word "monarchia" describes in Hungarian almost exclusively the Austro-Hungarian one, even though most people know that this word has a general meaning.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #35474
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Well, I remember that we had one history lesson about how the Habsburgs monarchy was created and about it's early times, maybe because some of our kings had some family relations with Habsburgs and some Habsburgs were candidates for our throne when we were an elective monarchy (I might have messed something up, I am not good in history, but from what I remember, it was so) - but we didn't say much about just the Austro-Hungarian country.

For us, in Polish, monarchy (monarchia) is just another word for a kingdom (królestwo), maybe used more as a name for a way of ruling a country rather than specifically in a name of a country.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #35475
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Quote:
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In English it is often called as Austro-Hungarian Empire, however such a name is not acceptable in Hungary.
Such things around national pride may be extremely important to insiders, and just impossible to understand to others.

The Finnish history writing typically just ignores the form of constitution. In textbooks, the name of the country simply translates to "Austria-Hungary". However, the synonym "Double Monarchy" is widely in use, too. From a distance, the details have less importance.

BTW, I happened to be in Vienna in April 1989, and I had an opportunity to see the cortege of the last empress of Austria and queen of Hungary. Empress Zita died at the age of 96. Standing at the street in Vienna and looking at the three-hour public ceremony, I felt witnessing something very important.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 07:55 PM   #35476
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Such things around national pride may be extremely important to insiders, and just impossible to understand to others.

The Finnish history writing typically just ignores the form of constitution. In textbooks, the name of the country simply translates to "Austria-Hungary". However, the synonym "Double Monarchy" is widely in use, too. From a distance, the details have less importance.
In Polish, we usually call it just Austro-Węgry. But talking about double monarchies, we used to be one too - creating a single country together with Lithuania (which was much bigger in those times, covering also much areas of the current Belarus and Ukraine).

And we have two words for a republic. One is "republika" - and it refers to just any republic (for example Republika Francuska - the Republic of France) or to the way of ruling a country (you can say "Polska jest republiką" - "Poland is a republic"), the other one - "rzeczpospolita" - is used only in the full name of Poland (Rzeczpospolita Polska - the Republic of Poland). The origin of the word is the same - from the Latin "res publica", "a common thing", just one is a direct loan word, the second word is a loan word created by translating the parts of the original word ("rzecz pospolita" = "a common thing").

Interestingly, the title "rzeczpospolita" was used for Poland (or Poland-Lithuania) already when we were still a monarchy. The Polish-Lithuanian country is often referred to as Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów - the Republic (or Commonwealth?) of Both Nations.

But, unlike Austro-Hugary, we had a single king.


Changing the topic, how is it with the rights of pedestrians in your countries?

In Poland, it's illegal to cross the street out of a zebra crossing or streets intersection unless it's more than 100 m to the closest one. It's also illegal if there is a tunnel or bridge for the pedestrians across the street, if the street has two carriegeways or there are tram tracks which are not a part of the carriageway.

The police from Łódź boasts about that they gave pedestrians 900 fines for illegal crossing the street in January: http://www.expressilustrowany.pl/lod...zych,11760421/

And an example is given of a 62-year women, who was crossing the street in a relatively safe place (more or less here: https://goo.gl/maps/VqXSa5y2r292 - it's a big street, but the traffic is not high here, you can easily give way to the cars on each carriageway and safely cross them). The police caught her when she was in the middle, between the carriageways, fined her and told her to go along the lawn to the nearest zebra crossing (at a 40 meter distance; take into account that this lawn between the carriageways is currently covered with snow).

The fines aren't high - for crossing the street illegally, it's 50 zł (+- 11 EUR), for crossing the street on a red light, it's 100 zł (+- 23 EUR). But, for example, from what I know, in Germany, it's not illegal to cross the street out of a zebra crossing - you just have to give way to all the cars. In some other countries it's even not illegal to cross the street at the red light.

What do you think about this? Should pedestrians be fined for crossing the street illegally when they don't do it in a dangerous way?

Last edited by Kpc21; February 5th, 2017 at 08:05 PM.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 08:28 PM   #35477
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[QUOTE=Kpc21;138171698]

In Poland, it's illegal to cross the street out of a zebra crossing or streets intersection unless it's more than 100 m to the closest one/QUOTE]

Same in Italy, but I guess it's very rarely enforced.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 08:39 PM   #35478
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In Poland, when a police sees you doing it, you are most likely fined. I don't think it's good. People get scared of police.

And I am not talking about running in front of an approaching car, which should be fined much higher than it is.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:33 PM   #35479
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Well done. But I think it would not survive, unless it was some alliance of sovereing states. It is very close to V4+.
Just teritorially But due to getting up from knees doing by those morons from the party currently ruling Poland it would not work with any compromise anymore, at least in next few years. They get up from knees by falling into knees to do... some French kind of love for Orban and simply no one consciously thinking would not plan any interests with them.

But apart from that, not the whole teritory of current Poland had been a part of AH, so it's not as true. And some part of current Ukraine also should be counted: Lwów with its neighbourhood.
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- Erich dostoł! - i do dziś nie wiesz, czy to krzyczał grenszuc, czy powstaniec.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 09:33 PM   #35480
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I read that the government in place in Poland thinks high-school students spend too much time on math and science, and that they need to double the amount of hours devoted to Polish history with emphasis on key national events and heroes and civics. They also want to push voluntary religious education in schools, I read. This is sparking a backlash.

In one line, in my opinion, this is what happens when groups with ideological dark intentions are let run amok because the population becomes too cynical to care about electoral politics.
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