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Old February 6th, 2017, 12:54 PM   #35501
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In France, no one really cares, you can cross a normal street freely as long as you can ensure your own safety by checking carefully if there is no cars for example...

In Romania crossing a street is something almost like a crime , I already got charged for around 20€ by cops because I crossed a street outside of a zebra (but there was no cars at all)... I don't understand why romanians cops are going psycho for such insignificant thing, meanwhile, around 50% of drivers are driving and using their phone one the same time (even if it is causing terrible crashes and deaths), some are driving like crazy inside the city.... but oddly I never saw a cop giving a ticket to someone who drives and who use his phone in the same time... they are only giving ticket to those who are overspeeding... those who are overspeeding a lot in fact, for romanian cops going at 70km/h in a city (50km/h limit) is still fine...
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Old February 6th, 2017, 02:07 PM   #35502
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It doesn't happen only in Poland. Look at the protests against Trump in the USA. But in Poland, the strength of those antagonisms is exceptional. Which is sad.

And who is to blame? Nobody is to blame.
Basically it's not a pure Polish problem, but there is one more thing, which is pretty significant in Poland. "law and justice" is not only a nationalistic party with national postulates, as so much strenghtening parties around Europe are. They are also simple morons without perspective of future relations with anybody (excluding Hungary, as long as Fidesz rules this country with almost unlimited power), without care about economy (if to take into account its real condition, not wishes about influence of each social program). I might prove it by examples, but I guess you are informed as well to know what I mean, the same with anybody taking care about Poland's economy with any intensity. As for it, who really gains? Russia of course. It's very significant that they don't complain any step of Poland's government, which is so-called anti-Russian, and actually the government do nothing to try to be a partner, though Russia is a hard partner, which the whole 8 years of Civic Platform government proved so many times (and when Russian complaining was able to hear almost constantly).

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There is one more option. If the rule of PiS will cause an economic collapse of the country. But it doesn't look like that. They will make same savings on infrastructural investments and cover with that the increased spendings on the social benefits for big families (so called 500+) or increased retirement age. Is it bad? Is it good? On this forum, we consider it bad because we like infrastructural investments here. But as infrastructural investments bring certain advantages to the country (more investors will want to invest here when the infrastructure is better), the social benefits also bring advantages (more children being born - at least, assuming that it will work, but we will see). Only the increase of the retirement age was a stupid, populist decision. But our generation will have no pensions (or almost no pensions) anyway.

Although in my opinion, they should get somehow punished (by the fate, not by some guys from the EU, because otherwise, it will result in more and more anti-EU views in the society, which is the last thing we need) for what they are doing with the democracy.

The previous ruling party, PO, also wasn't innocent in those terms (the surveillance-gate, tapegate, or however you call the afera podsłuchowa in English, or, actually, what they did with the magazine which published those tapes). And, as a result, they lost the elections. But the support for PiS is still so high that they would become the ruling party now, even though they do what they do...
If only "law and justice" manage anything which might have some good influence into Poland's condition (which is very wide term), then it will certainly break by their stupidity and greed.

Pure example: current discusion about Warsaw metropolitan area. Of course, regulations about areas like that exist around the world; what's more, they are very useful, needful and that case should be regulated right now. But for what the case already is? For becoming more influential into the city, as Warsaw always was and still is against "law and justice", which general electoral votes purely prove. Just check selection of communities and arguments about it. Of course no one tries to cause the discussion about that, grade eventual priorities and so on. Instead of it we hear very rude statements of Jacek Sasin, who is a very beaten in the battle for ruling in Warsaw.

And why actually I write everything in this case? Because people from the outside should know how it really works. It's a reptile collapse happening currently here. Someone took Poland into a bunch of Western (mentally) countries? Then made a mistake.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 02:24 PM   #35503
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And the kingdoms of Norway, Denmark, and Sweden do not have?
The do. Which goes back to my point - European monarchies are not essential elements of the advanced democracies found in these states. They are an outgrown relic that refers to hereditary power, a caste, and obviously undemocratic by itself.

Let's make an analogy: suppose that giving left handed people an extra vote on elections didn't fundamentally change a country. Does it make it right?

But I leave that up to the locals to decide. I have permanent residency rights in the Netherlands but I'm not a citizen here.

In Andorra and Liechtenstein, however, the monarchies have way too much actual government power, especially in the latter.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 03:44 PM   #35504
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So it's a discussion like monarchy vs. democracy... Not a constitutional monarchy (which, usually, is actually a democracy), rather a monarchy like in the past.

Democracy is not a good system. In that, the people electing the government often have no idea how the country should be ruled and do it only for their short-term advantage. Just look at the discussed Poland's case.

It doesn't mean monarchy is perfect. You can get once a dumb talentless king who will also have no idea of or interest in what to do for the country to develop and to be good for the citizens. And, as you say, the monarch is likely not to notice the needs of simple people - although the same can often be said about the politicians in a democracy. Theoretically people can choose someone else in the next elections - but, again, many people have no ability of seeing the country and the society as a whole and they will do everything for their own advantage. And, since the politicians in a democracy rule for a limited amount of time (most often - 4 years) and then they are likely to be replaced by others, they are likely not to invest in future, not to make decisions which will have long-term positive results, even though the short-term results are invisible or even negative.

I won't say any of those systems is better or worse, both of them have advantages and disadvantages. Democracy seems to be kind of more fair, since the people have a chance of deciding on their own about everything what influences them later - but in practice, it doesn't work in such a simple way.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 07:40 PM   #35505
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Changing the topic, how is it with the rights of pedestrians in your countries?

In Poland, it's illegal to cross the street out of a zebra crossing or streets intersection unless it's more than 100 m to the closest one. It's also illegal if there is a tunnel or bridge for the pedestrians across the street, if the street has two carriegeways or there are tram tracks which are not a part of the carriageway.
In Sweden you cross anywhere not explicitly forbidden. There is also no penalty or fine for crossing during a red light. At crosswalks vehicles have to yield to pedestrians.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 07:55 PM   #35506
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So it's a discussion like monarchy vs. democracy... Not a constitutional monarchy (which, usually, is actually a democracy), rather a monarchy like in the past.

Democracy is not a good system. In that, the people electing the government often have no idea how the country should be ruled and do it only for their short-term advantage. Just look at the discussed Poland's case.

It doesn't mean monarchy is perfect. You can get once a dumb talentless king who will also have no idea of or interest in what to do for the country to develop and to be good for the citizens. And, as you say, the monarch is likely not to notice the needs of simple people - although the same can often be said about the politicians in a democracy. Theoretically people can choose someone else in the next elections - but, again, many people have no ability of seeing the country and the society as a whole and they will do everything for their own advantage. And, since the politicians in a democracy rule for a limited amount of time (most often - 4 years) and then they are likely to be replaced by others, they are likely not to invest in future, not to make decisions which will have long-term positive results, even though the short-term results are invisible or even negative.

I won't say any of those systems is better or worse, both of them have advantages and disadvantages. Democracy seems to be kind of more fair, since the people have a chance of deciding on their own about everything what influences them later - but in practice, it doesn't work in such a simple way.
No, in democracies politicians should be accountable to people: if they behave very bad, people won't vote them again.
In dictatorships, rulers have no this concern, as they know they will remain in power regardless what they do, because their power doesn't depend by people's support.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 09:05 PM   #35507
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That's theory. Practice is different.

You give the people extra social benefits and they will vote for you again.

You say banks are evil and load them with extra taxes - no matter that, as a result, they increase fares, it gets more difficult to get a loan, so there is less investors and less workplaces - they like you (because they don't like banks and big companies, their simple logic is that banks and big companies have much money and they do not) and vote for you.

You agree with the people saying that the previous ruling party did bad increasing the retirement age and decrease it back - even though it will result in pensions so low that it's not enough for a retired person even just for the food and medicines, but the people don't realize it, you don't talk about that in the news on TV (and the news on the state TV stay most popular since people are simply used to it, they have always watched the news on the state TV, and simple people have no ability of critical thinking or they are just blinded by the fact they hear what they want to hear) - they vote for you.

You give public money to religious organizations, which already have too much money, even though you rule a secular country - they vote for you because they (most of them) are religious.

40% of the society disagrees with your politics and makes protests, as they realize it's not good for the country - you ignore them, because you are a legally, democratically chosen government and 60% of the society (which is enough for you to rule) supports you and is happy because of what you are saying and doing. And you say that those protesters are actually the previous rulers who just aren't able to accept that they don't rule any more. People believe you because they like you.

It's how democracy works. What most people want is not necessarily good for the country as a whole.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 09:14 PM   #35508
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What most people want is not necessarily good for the country as a whole.
On top of that, many people are not informed at all about the consequences of certain policies. You can't condense a 100 page report about pros and cons of a proposal in a single tweet without losing almost all context, but it happens every day.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #35509
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They aren't if it's not in the interest of the government to inform them.

If the government said: we will make the retirement age X years lower, but you will have Y zł lower pensions (where Y would be a realistic value) - definitely less people would support that then do now.

Of course, the opposition tries to inform people about this, but, again, people see that it's in the opposition's interest to regain the power, so they will believe it might be not true (if they want to). And the state TV will not show that in their news while it's the state TV's news what most people watch.

By the way, from my grandma's experience, with the pensions it's so that all the prices increase with time, but the pension - when it goes up, it goes up just a few PLN (a fraction of %).
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Old February 6th, 2017, 09:50 PM   #35510
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There is nothing better than democracy. Deal with that. Yeah, the political cycles are not good if there is alternating government and sometime it resembles arm wrestling. But politicians are somehow at least to do something.

And democracy is the best even if a measure, a government or a president is elected I do not like. But majority wanted that.

The other thing I don't like is talking about populism. An elected delegate is supposed to represent the voice of the majority. And once they do something they promised, they are usually called populist according to opposition.

Let me make it simple. In our apartment house, I have been elected as a secretary so I am the one who should represent the voice of our flat owners. Imagine there is a reconstruction underway and most of the owners have voted for blue façade even though I personally want it green.

Thus I tell the company responsible for project to do it in blue. Am I populist? I guess no. But what if I told them the façade must be green? Would I be democrat? I doubt.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 10:20 PM   #35511
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There is nothing better than democracy.
We do not know. Even if democracy is far from being optimal, it is the the best we know now. That does not mean that we cannot invent something much better during the coming centuries.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 10:31 PM   #35512
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There is nothing better than democracy. Deal with that. Yeah, the political cycles are not good if there is alternating government and sometime it resembles arm wrestling. But politicians are somehow at least to do something.

And democracy is the best even if a measure, a government or a president is elected I do not like. But majority wanted that.

The other thing I don't like is talking about populism. An elected delegate is supposed to represent the voice of the majority. And once they do something they promised, they are usually called populist according to opposition.

Let me make it simple. In our apartment house, I have been elected as a secretary so I am the one who should represent the voice of our flat owners. Imagine there is a reconstruction underway and most of the owners have voted for blue façade even though I personally want it green.

Thus I tell the company responsible for project to do it in blue. Am I populist? I guess no. But what if I told them the façade must be green? Would I be democrat? I doubt.
Indeed, so far nothing better than democracy. But democracy is not a given. It requires certain kind of behaviour of its actors.

You could e.g. promise the tenants that you will install a new heating system without increasing the monthly contributions they make. Then you would go to the bank, take a mortgage on their flats and install the system. After few years the savings would be gone, the building forfeit to the bank... In such a case you are either stupid, or a fraud.

What I want to say. The politics that are promised to the public and go through election should at least be reasonable and the public should be informed about the consequences of these plans. A politician might not know the consequences, or he might know them, but decide not to act on them and lie about his policies. I could imagine calling him a populist.

In our example you could simply let the people chose from increasing their contribution to the budget or informing them that they might lose their flat as a consequence of this risky investment.

In any case, the public receives exactly what it deserves. If it is not able to see through the stupidity or the swindles it won't get any better from the politicians. Politicians truly are the representation of their people. That is the beauty of a democracy.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 10:36 PM   #35513
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On top of that, many people are not informed at all about the consequences of certain policies. You can't condense a 100 page report about pros and cons of a proposal in a single tweet without losing almost all context, but it happens every day.
Democracy asks indeed a lot from the politicians. They should be able to do just that in fact! And the people should be able to get informed if they want the democracy to work.

Just look at Switzerland. Its perfectly possible. It just requires a lot of efforts from the society. Indeed, not every nation is evolved enough, or not every nation does prefer to make these efforts in order to preserve their democracy and make it a success. People might indeed prefer giving up part of their freedom in order to not have to exert effort. However, that also does not give any guarantee of more welfare. There's simply no way around the fact that any community gets only what it deserves (putting external influences and pressures apart).
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:19 PM   #35514
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Democracy asks indeed a lot from the politicians. They should be able to do just that in fact! And the people should be able to get informed if they want the democracy to work.

Just look at Switzerland. Its perfectly possible. It just requires a lot of efforts from the society. Indeed, not every nation is evolved enough, or not every nation does prefer to make these efforts in order to preserve their democracy and make it a success. People might indeed prefer giving up part of their freedom in order to not have to exert effort. However, that also does not give any guarantee of more welfare. There's simply no way around the fact that any community gets only what it deserves (putting external influences and pressures apart).
The Swiss system of decentralized direct voting does a lot of things right, but also some pretty unsavory stuff. Women were only granted national voting rights in 1971, and one of its cantons forbade road vehicles altogether until 1934. Apparently, it was not even a matter of Swiss men hating on women, but a sort of token vote against societal modernization (which was otherwise unstoppable), and a resentment towards the shifting power structures that came with urbanization and loss of importance of agriculture/rural life. Yet, an absolute shame that women could not vote in the whole of Switzerland until 1971!
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:23 PM   #35515
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Sometimes an evolution by the market is much better than forced "evolution" which is done by globalists now...
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:27 PM   #35516
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The Swiss system of decentralized direct voting does a lot of things right, but also some pretty unsavory stuff. Women were only granted national voting rights in 1971, and one of its cantons forbade road vehicles altogether until 1934. Apparently, it was not even a matter of Swiss men hating on women, but a sort of token vote against societal modernization (which was otherwise unstoppable), and a resentment towards the shifting power structures that came with urbanization and loss of importance of agriculture/rural life. Yet, an absolute shame that women could not vote in the whole of Switzerland until 1971!
Sure, shame on them.

Yet those women apparently traded their freedom for the welfare provided up to certain point. Otherwise they would have been not comfortable with the setup much more earlier. When their evaluation changed, they were able to change the system, without revolutions, dictators, etc etc... It rather shows that the Swiss democracy is a very robust one.

Do not fall for a fallacy that elitism (enlightened ruling elite ruling for the greater good, morals, values, etc...) would do better. It would not. Power corrupts. Uncontrolled, unchecked, power is then a perfect corruption environment. You might be lucky and get some years of enlightened ruling, but without the public control, it will sooner or later take very unfavourable course for the majority of the society.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:39 PM   #35517
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Sure, shame on them.

Yet those women apparently traded their freedom for the welfare provided up to certain point. Otherwise they would have been not comfortable with the setup much more earlier. When their evaluation changed, they were able to change the system, without revolutions, dictators, etc etc... It rather shows that the Swiss democracy is a very robust one.

Do not fall for a fallacy that elitism (enlightened ruling elite ruling for the greater good, morals, values, etc...) would do better. It would not. Power corrupts. Uncontrolled, unchecked, power is then a perfect corruption environment. You might be lucky and get some years of enlightened ruling, but without the public control, it will sooner or later take very unfavourable course for the majority of the society.
I am in very in favor of democracy, it is just hyperlocal direct voting that I'm opposed to, when it comes to things like neighbors voting on somebody's citizenship, or cantons creating their own mini-domestic tax heavens with regressive income taxes that are lower % for higher earners.

Within a given country, often certain causes become proxy for other grievances, which is why I like centralized national governments that can impose, even against heavy local opposition, societal modernization when warranted (such as forcing all communities to allow women to vote, regardless of local dynamics or whether some women feared urbanized feminists of the 1930s who not only wanted to vote but also put women to work, frightening those used to get married and be home-bound).
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:41 PM   #35518
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Sometimes an evolution by the market is much better than forced "evolution" which is done by globalists now...
Individual rights should be pushed down less advanced societies as a matter of universalism of basic human rights. Bombs and invasions are not an appropriate instrument, but economic incentives or soft power directed to force other cultures to adapt to 21st Century in regard of their disenfranchised members - I am all on board for that.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:46 PM   #35519
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Forcing will never have the outcome you hope.
You don't have to like it, the majority of the country has to and has to be ready for that.

I learned that understanding that natural evolution is the best, is very hard to understand by the people in the West.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 12:02 AM   #35520
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Individual rights should be pushed down less advanced societies as a matter of universalism of basic human rights. Bombs and invasions are not an appropriate instrument, but economic incentives or soft power directed to force other cultures to adapt to 21st Century in regard of their disenfranchised members - I am all on board for that.
Forcing people to change mostly won't change them. It will make things worse. The most you can do is to try to persuade them so that they change their evaluations, not limiting their constraints in which they make the evaluation by forcing them.

After all, all those universal values are merely a result of our valuation where we prefer to have those values existent, because we evaluate such a state of the world higher than other states. If we were visited by aliens (thus arguably a superior civilisation) that would try to impose on us other values, we would not be happy with that.

I recommend this short story by Eliezer Yudkowsky to you: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y5/the_babyeating_aliens_18/

It poses very relevant questions about just this issue.
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