daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 7th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #35521
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The Swiss system of decentralized direct voting does a lot of things right, but also some pretty unsavory stuff. Women were only granted national voting rights in 1971, and one of its cantons forbade road vehicles altogether until 1934. Apparently, it was not even a matter of Swiss men hating on women, but a sort of token vote against societal modernization (which was otherwise unstoppable), and a resentment towards the shifting power structures that came with urbanization and loss of importance of agriculture/rural life. Yet, an absolute shame that women could not vote in the whole of Switzerland until 1971!
Ironically, the fact of CH not allowing women to vote until 1971 is the consequence of their love for direct democracy (that it's something that I generally like, although it may have some unintended consequences, like partially-informed people voting for what they think it's better, instead for what is really better).
In fact, extending political rights to women, would have been only possible through a referendum. However, at a such referendum, only men would be allowed to vote. So, Swiss men voted few times against female political rights. Only in 1971, the majority of Swiss men voted to extend political rights to women.
In Italy women were given political rights for the first time in 1945. There was no referendum for that, simply the new post-war government though it was the right thing to do for a 20th century democracy.

However, the fact of CH not allowing women to vote and being elected as late as 1971 has no influence on the quality of Swiss democracy today. In other European countries, nobody was allowed to vote freely until 1974/75 or 1989/90. This doesn't make them less democratic nowadays, and if they are, it's not because they got democracy later.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 7th, 2017, 12:36 AM   #35522
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Do not fall for a fallacy that elitism (enlightened ruling elite ruling for the greater good, morals, values, etc...) would do better. It would not. Power corrupts. Uncontrolled, unchecked, power is then a perfect corruption environment. You might be lucky and get some years of enlightened ruling, but without the public control, it will sooner or later take very unfavourable course for the majority of the society.
I agree. Enlightened authoritarism doesn't exist in practice. When someone has an unlimited power, he will get corrupt and authoritarian, he will put his own interests before of people's interests. When someone's power is limited (for example by constitution or other laws, by independent judiciary, or by the fear of not being elected again), he'll has less interest in becoming corrupt or authoritarian, as he's accountable for his own actions.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 12:47 AM   #35523
italystf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,460
Likes (Received): 2186

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Indeed, so far nothing better than democracy. But democracy is not a given. It requires certain kind of behaviour of its actors.

You could e.g. promise the tenants that you will install a new heating system without increasing the monthly contributions they make. Then you would go to the bank, take a mortgage on their flats and install the system. After few years the savings would be gone, the building forfeit to the bank... In such a case you are either stupid, or a fraud.

What I want to say. The politics that are promised to the public and go through election should at least be reasonable and the public should be informed about the consequences of these plans. A politician might not know the consequences, or he might know them, but decide not to act on them and lie about his policies. I could imagine calling him a populist.

In our example you could simply let the people chose from increasing their contribution to the budget or informing them that they might lose their flat as a consequence of this risky investment.

In any case, the public receives exactly what it deserves. If it is not able to see through the stupidity or the swindles it won't get any better from the politicians. Politicians truly are the representation of their people. That is the beauty of a democracy.
In Italy, between 1973 and 1995 there was in force an outrageous law that allowed workers of the public sector to retire after only 15, 20 or 25 (according to categories) years of work.
That means that some people could retire as young as 35. If they lived until 80, it means that they paid contributes for 15 years and got retirement wage for 45!

You don't need to be an economist to realize that a such measure would be economically unsustainable in the long term. Needless to say, it created a huge waste of public money, that later required though tax increases and budget cuts in important fields like health care and education.

It also encouraged illegal work, as it was plenty of adults in labour age with nothing to do.

However, at that time, this law was popular, because people think more about they personal benefits "how cool, I'll retire soon", rather than about the macroeconomic consequence of a policy.
__________________
“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Kpc21 liked this post
italystf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 02:05 AM   #35524
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,376
Likes (Received): 748

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I agree. Enlightened authoritarism doesn't exist in practice. When someone has an unlimited power, he will get corrupt and authoritarian, he will put his own interests before of people's interests. When someone's power is limited (for example by constitution or other laws, by independent judiciary, or by the fear of not being elected again), he'll has less interest in becoming corrupt or authoritarian, as he's accountable for his own actions.
There's an English language saying about this... "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
__________________
100 coups de fouet, si vous n'êtes pas morts de rire !
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 07:40 AM   #35525
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,241
Likes (Received): 1755

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I agree. Enlightened authoritarism doesn't exist in practice. When someone has an unlimited power, he will get corrupt and authoritarian, he will put his own interests before of people's interests. When someone's power is limited (for example by constitution or other laws, by independent judiciary, or by the fear of not being elected again), he'll has less interest in becoming corrupt or authoritarian, as he's accountable for his own actions.
I am not the poor white man who votes against everything. But what really makes me angry is how elites sometimes preach about democracy with really stupid ideas like there should be an IQ/economic test before every election, or that the election law should be guaranteed only for well educated people or people who pay taxes.

There is same ratio in such ideas indeed, but for me it is more like latent autocracy. Like we will eliminate all our enemies and then we will win.

Come on, it is democracy. No democracy works in system where minority decides. On the other hand, the quality of democracy can be measured by the respect for minorities (e.g. even if a conservative party rules, the government does not ban or punish LGBT; but also LGBT must accept their problems are not a priority for other people).

Once there are restrictions, it is not democracy.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO


cinxxx, Kanadzie liked this post
volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 07:42 AM   #35526
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,259
Likes (Received): 18313

There is no democracy actually in West of Europe.
Just look at all the censor and restrictions of free speech (to not offend different groups of people, usually minorities).
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 07:57 AM   #35527
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,241
Likes (Received): 1755

It slowly happens here too. The voters in SK were usually divided into leftists (people prone to praise the socialism) and rightists (people who wanted to see SK in EU, NATO, etc.).

But as the migrant crisis emerged and corruption was on the top, they fell for fascists and unfortunately they made it to parliament. To prevent the situation from being worse (as it turned out it is not working) a group of formerly hostile parties has formed a government (against fascists). People became immediately disappointed and lost their taste to vote for anything (the group of non-voters has raised radically).

Now the fascist are a subject of arguing e.g. if coalition wants to discredit the opposition, they usually say "you voted with fascists" and vice-versa. It makes people tired of politics.

It also (but also in Europe and Western world) caused so called inflation of "fascists" notion. It is not as offensive word as it used to be in past. Now it became defacto an alternative to liberal leftists ideology which scares me. But also, the "fascists" usually call liberal leftists "fascists" because some are to breach the general human rights in favour of human rights of some people.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 08:52 AM   #35528
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,259
Likes (Received): 18313

Imho, the real fascists really are the leftists. They want to ban freedom of speech, prosecute people who speak "wrongly", want to implement identity politics, label everything.
But what they also do, is label everyone who is to the right of them (and this is also often the case with centrist view) as nazi, fascist.
It just become the ultimate way to discredit and shut someone up...
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 08:56 PM   #35529
winnipeg
Registered User
 
winnipeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Arad
Posts: 664
Likes (Received): 206

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Imho, the real fascists really are the leftists. They want to ban freedom of speech, prosecute people who speak "wrongly", want to implement identity politics, label everything.
But what they also do, is label everyone who is to the right of them (and this is also often the case with centrist view) as nazi, fascist.
It just become the ultimate way to discredit and shut someone up...
I personaly have the feeling that your view can totaly flip depending of what sources of information you are looking at... if you look at far right information sources, you will see the left as a big threat , and it's the same if you look at far left information sources, they will learn you how to hate the opponents...

I believe that we need everything to make a world and we should stop to see in every other people that doesn't share our point of view, a threat...
winnipeg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 09:00 PM   #35530
winnipeg
Registered User
 
winnipeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Arad
Posts: 664
Likes (Received): 206

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
There is no democracy actually in West of Europe.
Just look at all the censor and restrictions of free speech (to not offend different groups of people, usually minorities).
I don't know if by "west" you include France, but I absolutly don't agree with this assumption that everything is censored...

Maybe it's the goal of some people/groups to make you believe that your free spech is endangered or that people that are diferent than you are a threat,... some of those groups are playing with your deep fears...
winnipeg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 09:09 PM   #35531
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,259
Likes (Received): 18313

I include Germany
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 09:09 PM   #35532
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21249

I think there is an important difference between some sort of speech being illegal, or just being something that is socially rejected and detrimental to those who engage on it.

I do not want people who want to entertain eugenics arguments of the 1910s to be legally censored, I do want them to be socially ostracized when they babble on the Internet about how Europe is going downhill because of "mixed babies" - for instance. Ditto for people who think European governments should roll back secularism and become state defenders of specific strands of faith in some global religious war fantasy.

Most of the complaints about censorship in Europe are not actually about laws that stifle free speech (I am a strong defender of the right to free speech myself), but how certain ideas receive immediate backlash and risk people's jobs or social status in certain professions. In other words, some people want to conflate the right to say something with the right to say something outrageous and be treated nicely and in a welcome manner by everyone still. It is a plight for discourse without societal repercussions.

No sub-group is a better example of that than most of these "men right's activists", who, among some legitimate arguments (few), delve into a wave of "let's us go back to the day when a male with a good job was assured the right to have a financially dependent women who'd care for him and have sex with him ".
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

flusispieler liked this post

Last edited by Suburbanist; February 7th, 2017 at 09:15 PM.
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 10:18 PM   #35533
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,615
Likes (Received): 19411

What do you guys pay for car insurance?

My 2015 Hyundai i10 insurance is only € 33 per month for full coverage (the most expensive insurance you can choose). The cheapest one (liability only) would be € 22.50 per month.

They say the Dutch car insurances are one of the cheapest in at least Western Europe. You get additional discount if you don't claim any damages (I haven't claimed anything since an accident in 2006).
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 10:38 PM   #35534
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,241
Likes (Received): 1755

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What do you guys pay for car insurance?

My 2015 Hyundai i10 insurance is only € 33 per month for full coverage (the most expensive insurance you can choose). The cheapest one (liability only) would be € 22.50 per month.

They say the Dutch car insurances are one of the cheapest in at least Western Europe. You get additional discount if you don't claim any damages (I haven't claimed anything since an accident in 2006).
2007 Opel Vectra C:
mandatory insurance (for the one I cause a damage to): 40 € / trimonthly
additional insurance (for me in any case): 289* € / year

overall: ~37 € / month

*in case of an insurance event, the insurance company will pay 95 % of repairs given that the remaining 5 % does not add up to less than 165 €. In such case I pay 165 €. If an accident occurs and I am not the guilty one, my repairs are fully covered by the mandatory insurance of the guilty one.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO

volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 10:45 PM   #35535
volodaaaa
Registered User
 
volodaaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 3,241
Likes (Received): 1755

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I think there is an important difference between some sort of speech being illegal, or just being something that is socially rejected and detrimental to those who engage on it.

I do not want people who want to entertain eugenics arguments of the 1910s to be legally censored, I do want them to be socially ostracized when they babble on the Internet about how Europe is going downhill because of "mixed babies" - for instance. Ditto for people who think European governments should roll back secularism and become state defenders of specific strands of faith in some global religious war fantasy.

Most of the complaints about censorship in Europe are not actually about laws that stifle free speech (I am a strong defender of the right to free speech myself), but how certain ideas receive immediate backlash and risk people's jobs or social status in certain professions. In other words, some people want to conflate the right to say something with the right to say something outrageous and be treated nicely and in a welcome manner by everyone still. It is a plight for discourse without societal repercussions.

No sub-group is a better example of that than most of these "men right's activists", who, among some legitimate arguments (few), delve into a wave of "let's us go back to the day when a male with a good job was assured the right to have a financially dependent women who'd care for him and have sex with him ".
I agree, but the opposite example is a proud Muslim woman that was brought up in Western Europe fighting for women's right.... in Western Europe (which I consider little bit... ehrm... ridiculous). And I fairly agree with cinxxx that because of this post, I would be, within some groups, automatically marked a racist or fascist or at least a masculine terrorist and obviously a Muslim hater - surely a Trump's fan. None of this is true though I still think that such woman acts ridiculously.
__________________
Been/drove my car in: SK, CZ, D, A, H, PL, I, F, E, RSM, CH, FL, SLO, HR, SRB, BiH, MK, GR, BG, RO


Last edited by volodaaaa; February 7th, 2017 at 10:54 PM.
volodaaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 10:52 PM   #35536
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,259
Likes (Received): 18313

Quote:
No sub-group is a better example of that than most of these "men right's activists", who, among some legitimate arguments (few), delve into a wave of "let's us go back to the day when a male with a good job was assured the right to have a financially dependent women who'd care for him and have sex with him ".
Yeah, let's bring the Middle East here
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2017, 11:42 PM   #35537
keber
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 9,878
Likes (Received): 1364

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What do you guys pay for car insurance?
Honda Accord 2.4 y2010 - 740 € per year for complete insurance with road assistance included (that is 62 €/month) - that is actually very cheap as prices almost explode with more powerful engines.
keber no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2017, 12:14 AM   #35538
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,536
Likes (Received): 21249

Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Yeah, let's bring the Middle East here
Why do you assume I am in favor of immigration of low-skilled people from outside the EU?

I really dislike these ways to view the world in a binary way.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2017, 12:28 AM   #35539
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,259
Likes (Received): 18313

I didn't assume anything, just gave a good example of "patriarchal society" you suggested, as it really happens in Europe (Germnay, Sweden) right now...
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2017, 12:34 AM   #35540
bogdymol
bogdymod
 
bogdymol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 11,186

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What do you guys pay for car insurance?
Romania: Ford Focus 2013, 1.6 L diesel, 115 hp, registered on my father's name (he has a discount since he's retired): 585 RON (130 Euro) for 1 year.

This is just the basic insurance (so in case I damage my car, I have to repair it myself). The full insurance would cost an additional 700 Euro per year (insane!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
Honda Accord 2.4 y2010
Nice car
__________________
Lived, Been, Drove in: A B BG BiH CH CZ D DK E F FIN FL GBZ GR H HR I IRL L M MNE P PL RO RSM S SK SLO SRB UK V
+ Australia, Hong Kong, Macau, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, United Arab Emirates & United States of America
my clinched highways
My wife has just started a travel blog. Check it out here: makeitcount.blog
bogdymol no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
highways, motorways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium