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Old February 21st, 2017, 06:41 PM   #35681
keokiracer
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Except with Dutch, as we have exceptions to every rule.

There's a reason the saying 'de uitzondering bevestigt de regel' (the exception confirms the rule) exists in Dutch language
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Old February 21st, 2017, 06:52 PM   #35682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The point being that you need to know how they are pronounced. For example the pronounciation of Bordeaux is bɔʁdo, which is quite different from how it is spelled (in particular the -eaux). Grenoble is mentioned on the French-English 107.7 FM traffic information and is pronounced very different from what the French call it.

French is indeed fairly consistent. Most Dutch who know some basic French can pronounce French names fairly accurate (apart from accent of course).
But it's simply french rules. For Bordeaux it's the same than pronouncing "cadeaux", "chÔteaux", etc... Nothing surprising...

Probably, I don't know, my only others references are romanian (a roman language also) and english....
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Old February 21st, 2017, 07:39 PM   #35683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
But it's simply french rules. For Bordeaux it's the same than pronouncing "cadeaux", "chÔteaux", etc... Nothing surprising...



Probably, I don't know, my only others references are romanian (a roman language also) and english....
The thing about French is that the rules only work one way.
I can easily know how to pronounce verre, but if I pronounce it I don't know which one of the following I'm pronouncing:

Ver
Vers
Verre
Verres
Vert
Verts

Also, French has many pronunciation exceptions (femme and fils come to my mind) and, in general, there is an abundance of ways to write the same sounds, and lots of silent letters.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 07:48 PM   #35684
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I agree with winnipeg, French rules are consistent and Bordeaux is pronounced just like any other similar French word. And why are we even talking about Grenoble? But anyway, I have great difficulties understanding spoken French (even if spoken slowly and literarily).

EDIT: what Jasper90 says
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Old February 21st, 2017, 09:22 PM   #35685
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Funny thing, a Slovak expat I meet here was surprised when he came here and found out Italians don't like pasta with ketchup.
We visited Prague as part of a student trip years ago and I still remember the reaction when we were served pasta with ketchup at a canteen. I have to admit, it didn't leave the best impression. Then again, the city more than made up for it.

Still though, why would anyone put ketchup on plain pasta? It's not nearly as tasty as using tomatoes or at least passata.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 09:39 PM   #35686
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There is no need to refuse something based on one experience. I have had several disgusting spaghetti with ketchup in my school canteen. They used the cheapest ketchup and overcooked the pasta.

But we also serve this food (spaghetti and pasta) at home. Usually we put some minced meat in and it taste very delicious. Sometime we use wholegrain pasta. Looks more like this:


Best with parmesan.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 11:43 PM   #35687
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About French pronounciation, I remember some years ago during a Tour stage the hosts had fun with the pronounciation of 'L'Yonne', as it is close to that of Lyon (Which is South of Yonne department).
Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
Except with Dutch, as we have exceptions to every rule.

There's a reason the saying 'de uitzondering bevestigt de regel' (the exception confirms the rule) exists in Dutch language
We also have that saying in Spanish (La excepciˇn que confirma la regla).
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Old February 21st, 2017, 11:57 PM   #35688
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there is one thing that I will never understand in French.

"Dis oui!" (Say yes!) is pronounced "di wi".
"Vous etes." (You are.) is pronounced "vuzet".

why is "s" in "dis" not connected to the beginning vowel in following word, and in "vous" it is connected and pronounced?
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:06 AM   #35689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
there is one thing that I will never understand in French.

"Dis oui!" (Say yes!) is pronounced "di wi".
"Vous etes." (You are.) is pronounced "vuzet".

why is "s" in "dis" not connected to the beginning vowel in following word, and in "vous" it is connected and pronounced?
It's called liaisons ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liaison_%28French%29 ) and yes, it's very tricky

But yeah nothing new here, french is not a very easy language if you want to speak it very well...
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:20 AM   #35690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-type View Post
there is one thing that I will never understand in French.

"Dis oui!" (Say yes!) is pronounced "di wi".
"Vous etes." (You are.) is pronounced "vuzet".

why is "s" in "dis" not connected to the beginning vowel in following word, and in "vous" it is connected and pronounced?
Correct me if I am wrong. The liaison is forbidden before the words starting with a quiet "h". The word "oui" is a member to this category, even if the initial letter has disappeared during the centuries.

BTW, "Vous ŕtes."

Last edited by MattiG; February 22nd, 2017 at 12:21 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:40 AM   #35691
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"Dix-huit" (18) is pronounced [dizwit], so no.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 04:59 AM   #35692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I think Polish, Hungarian, and Welsh names are the most difficult in Europe to spell and pronounce.
If you don't know even the basics of French, you will have problems with pronouncing the French names properly.

Same for English, actually. But English is very popular and most people know at least basics of it, French - not so much.

Like: Mulhouse in the past, I thought it should be pronounced as in English. And I was wondering why the Polish name of this city is Miluza. Now I know that the Polish name shows, more or less, how to pronounce it correctly in French (in the English transcription, it's something like meelouse - or let someone French correct me if I am wrong).

Hungarian has crazy-sounding names (like the border railway station Bihareresztes, or Bihakerestesz, I always mix sz an s up, because in Polish sz means the sh sound and s the s sound, and in Hungarian it's exactly opposite: sz is the s sound and s is the sh sound) - but they are not so difficult in guessing how to pronounce them correctly. Generally, most European languages using the Latin alphabet have very similar pronunciations of all the letters, with the notable exceptions of English and French. There are minor differences, like LL pronounced as Y in Spanish, or Y being just Y (such a vowel - similar to the English short I) or English Y spelled as J (German and Polish do it, for example).

But anyway, French is actually much more logical with that than English. In French, as in each "normal" language, a letter or a sequence of letters is equivalent to a single sound (with more or less exceptions). Sometimes to a lack of a sound, but there are simple rules for that, which work in most cases. In English - after years of learning English, I have no problem with properly guessing how to pronounce a word I haven't seen before. But when somebody is new to English, it becomes difficult (luckily, the ubiquity of English e.g. in songs simplifies it much).

Maybe I am not a good person to judge, but I wouldn't say Polish is difficult to pronounce.

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Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
to the point I think the Polish city named Lodz should be called "Woodge" in English to match its local pronounciation.
You chose the one which is probably most difficult to pronounce for foreigners from all the Polish towns and cities...

Seeing Warszawa, Krakˇw or Poznań, I think, you will have not much problem with pronouncing them. Even if you replace ˇ with o and ń with n, simply, not much changes in the word anyway.

The problem with Łˇdź is that this name contains ONLY sounds represented as Polish-specific letters. So if you write Lodz instead of Łˇdź, the pronunciation changes totally.

Ł - pronounced like English W (I guess, it evolved from U in English and from L in Polish, and that's why the letters are totally different, although the sound is the same)
Ë - it's basically another spelling of the U sound known from most European languages (like English OO, OU, short U, not the one sounding like "you"); we have 2 letters for that because apart from the normal U, we have one which evolved from O, it behaves differently in declensions so we are still keeping it to preserve the logic in the language
DŹ - let's start with a question: is ts in English or tz in German a single sound or two separate sounds?
In Polish, we consider it a single sound and we normally write using the letter c. But then, as you have p and b, k and g, t and d, if you have tz, you can create dz. For unknown reasons, tz is written in Polish not as tz, but using a single letter c (which makes sense when we consider it to be a single sound), but for dz we have two letters representing a single sound. Probably, there was just not enough letters in the Latin alphabet.
So the issue with the D is solved. Anyway, the foreigners usually have no problem catching how this part works.
Then Ź. English does not really distinguish between so called "soft" and "hard" consonants, so it is tricky to explain. And I don't know any example of a language to give you an example with...
Just google the pronunciations of: sz and ś, ż and ź, c and ć, dz and dź, n and ń, you will hear the difference. In English, you usually hear the "hard" equivalent (sz - sh, ż - e.g. s in pleasure, c - well, I think this sound doesn't exist in English, dż - j in jungle), although it's not so "hard" as in Polish. Sometimes I hear it pronounce once softer, once harder in the same word, pronounced e.g. by two different persons... Polish men speaking English will tend to pronounce them "harder" than they should because while learning English, we normally associate them with the Polish hard consonants (sz, ż, dż). German, meanwhile, pronounces all of them (sz - sch, ż - perhaps not existing in German, c - tz, dż - dsch in Dschungel) in the "hard" way. Very "hard" way. Maybe it's one of the reason why it sounds to many as it sounds...

All of which is more or less the same problem as with Mulhouse in France. Just a big bigger problem because you chose an extreme word. Which turns out to be one of the biggest Polish cities and my city, by the way...

Although in case of Łˇdź, locals will understand it anyway. When you give a website address, it has the Polish-specific characters replaced with the Latin ones, so you say "lodz" instead of "Łˇdź". So since the advent of the Internet, people got used to this pronunciation too

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Danish written language looks quite familiar if you know Dutch, German and English, but I can't understand anything when spoken.
Same for me

I know English in German.

Written Dutch looks like German with very weird spelling. Sometimes I can even understand quite much, maybe even more than from other Slavic languages being Polish. Spoken Dutch - sounds kind of English.

The Scandinavian languages - I still understand something, but much less in general. Pronounced - well, they are specific, not similar to anything. You hear really many consonants and "umlauts".

Finnish - extremely easy pronunciation, you pronounce exactly as you see. Only the language is very weird and you understand totally nothing (because it's not even Indo-European). By the way, same with Hungarian (although... they have a few loan words from Polish or other Slavic languages, like the names of the days of the week, or their word for a street - utca - which is almost like ulica, and ulica is street in probably all the Slavic languages).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
An Austrian colleague of mine once said: German is the easiest language in the world, because you pronounce the words exactly how they are written.
Because it is so

On one of our first German lessons (6th grade of primary school), the teacher gave us a list of German letters and letter combinations and how they are all pronounced. And it's the whole German pronunciation. Almost the whole - sometimes the pronunciation depends on the position of the sound in the word. E.g. when you pronounce s as s and when as sh. Plus a tendency to maintain the original pronunciation of loan words (look at the German pronunciation of the word "restaurant" - in English you pronounce it exactly as you see it, Germans pronounce it the French way, "restorą" in the Polish transcription - the English one would not work, there is no way to spell a nasal vowel in English).

By the way. The Strasburg city. In German you pronounce it Shtrasboorg. In French - strasbour (underlined the stressed syllables). In which language it's easier to pronounce?


Ok, most of the thinks I wrote about here, while browsing through the thread, were already told... But not all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Italian and German and, to a lesser extent, Spanish are unambiguous in writing. Should an Italian encounter a word he never saw written, he would know how to pronounce it, and vice versa (he can write down an unkown word spoken out loud).
And Polish the same And you write Polish has difficult pronunciation.

There is an ambiguity in the opposite direction. You hear a word and sometimes there is more than one way to write it. Sometimes you have to ask if you write it with ˇ or u (I already wrote about this issue), or with h or ch. And the children in primary schools sometimes do have hard time learning the proper spelling of the words (although there are rules for that, the spelling usually depends on how the word changes in declension, there are also exceptions, but there is not so many; and there is no rule for h/ch, so you must just remember which words have h, since ch is more used).

But when you see a word, in 99% cases you know how to read it. The other 1% are some loan words and cases like when rz does not mean a ż sound (I talk about earlier - it's like s in measure, it can be expressed using ż or rz and the difference is usually seen when you change the word to another part of speech, ż will often change to g and rz to r), but just r and z.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The same applies to Finnish. In fact, Finnish is unambigous in both directions at the character level, with some exceptions: One phoneme maps to one written letter. The words "tuli", "tulin", "tuuli", "tulli" all have a different meaning. The pronunciation can be derived from the written text and vice versa.
What does the number of repeated letters mean in Finnish? Are you supposed to pronounce the U in tuuli longer than in tuli?

Btw, "tuli" means "he hugs" in Polish

Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
There's a reason the saying 'de uitzondering bevestigt de regel' (the exception confirms the rule) exists in Dutch language
I think it's international. We have it in Polish too, and I know it exists in Swedish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
"Dix-huit" (18) is pronounced [dizwit], so no.
Maybe it just confirms the rule
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 05:34 AM   #35693
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Hungarian is crazy, I already traveled a lot/visited Hungary but each time that I try to read hungarian, it's NOPE...

In a way, it's sad for the country (without talking about immigration issues), it means that their language has a way lower chance to be learned by people from other countries compared to other languages and especialy latin ones... In my own situation, if the language would'nt have been such an issue, maybe I would have been studying in Hungary instead of Romania, it maybe would have been better for me (I love Hungary, I love how respectfull hungarians are behaving and I love their love for bikes )... but anyway...
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 10:51 AM   #35694
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Hungarian pronounciation is actually very easy. You think it's difficult because it differs heavily from what you're accustomed to and you've never learned how to pronounce it correctly.
But Hungarian has simple rules and very few exceptions. Exceptions are basically words with foreign origin, but even many of them is transscripted to Hungarian. Example: "garßzs". It means garage (i.e. not a car repair shop but a building where you store your car) and must be pronounced more or less like garage in French (garaazh).

The main issue for foreigners in Hungarian are double letters which sign a single syllable. Examples:
"cs": like "ch" in English, "č" in many slav languages.
"ny": like "˝" in Spanish, "nj" in German.
etc.
That "y" is the most misleading one: it makes the previous consonant softer and must not be pronounced like an "i" in "it" - actually it must not be pronounced at all.

Several months ago I saw an ad of a Hungarian language school* where a foreigner tried to pronounce the name "CsÝksomlyˇ". (This place is now in Romania, the Romanian name is Șumuleu Ciuc. Funny, the Romanian name show almost clearly the proper Hungarian pronounciation).
They said like "Kseeksomleeo" which is very wrong. The proper pronounciation is like "Cheekshomyo" ("Čikšomjo" if you're Serb/Croat/Czech/Slovak, "Czikszoml'o" if you're Polish, "Tschiekschomjoh", if you're German :-)).

* Actually that school is in Romania in a dominantly ethnically Hungarian region.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 10:59 AM   #35695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Like: Mulhouse in the past, I thought it should be pronounced as in English. And I was wondering why the Polish name of this city is Miluza. Now I know that the Polish name shows, more or less, how to pronounce it correctly in French (in the English transcription, it's something like meelouse - or let someone French correct me if I am wrong).
Mulhouse and other cities in the Alsace-Lorraine area are not the best possible examples. Mulhouse/MŘlhausen has been a French, a Swiss and a German town in the history. There are zillions of German-originated names around, and applying the French pronunciation rules to them might be somewhat challenging.

Quote:
What does the number of repeated letters mean in Finnish? Are you supposed to pronounce the U in tuuli longer than in tuli?
Yes, it is their purpose. The length of the letter is significant: "Kisa" and "kissa" are different words, as well as "takka" and "taakka". The diacritics are significant, too: the letter "a" and "o" are not the same as "ń" and "÷". "Pelata" and "pelńtń" are two verbs having a different meaning.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 11:23 AM   #35696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Hungarian pronounciation is actually very easy. You think it's difficult because it differs heavily from what you're accustomed to and you've never learned how to pronounce it correctly.
But Hungarian has simple rules and very few exceptions. Exceptions are basically words with foreign origin, but even many of them is transscripted to Hungarian. Example: "garßzs". It means garage (i.e. not a car repair shop but a buildung where you store your car) and must be pronounced more or less like garage in French (garaazh).

The main issue for foreigners in Hungarian are double letters which sign a single syllable. Examples:
"cs": like "ch" in English, "č" in many slav languages.
"ny": like "˝" in Spanish, "nj" in German.
etc.
Thay "y" is the most misleading one: it makes the previous consonant softer and must not be pronounced like an "i" in "it" - actually it must not be pronounced at all.

Several months ago I saw an ad of a Hungarian language school* where a foreigner tried to pronounce the name "CsÝksomlyˇ". (This place is now in Romania, the Romanian name is Șumuleu Ciuc. Funny, the Romanian name show almost clearly the proper Hungarian pronounciation).
They said like "Kseeksomleeo" which is very wrong. The proper pronounciation is like "Cheekshomyo" ("ČikÜomjo" if you're Serb/Croat/Czech/Slovak, "Cziksoml'o" if you're Polish, "Tschiekschomjoh", if you're German :-)).

* Actually that school is in Romania in a dominantly ethnically Hungarian region.
Okay, thanks for the explanation, it's very interesting!

But except from pronunciation, I read that hungarian is one of the hardest language because it has almost no links with other languages (which join what you said)...
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 03:03 PM   #35697
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Okay, thanks for the explanation, it's very interesting!

But except from pronunciation, I read that hungarian is one of the hardest language because it has almost no links with other languages (which join what you said)...
Right, but if you know the hungarian letters, you can read easy. ( True, that's not so much understanding to you, but your pronounce would be perfect )

Vowels have short and long version.
'Sz' is english S, 'S' is english Sh.
'Ty' is croatian ć or slovak t'.
'Gy' is D in the During word or slavic Đ, d'
'Ly' is same as the hungarian J or english Y
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 05:24 PM   #35698
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"Gy" is even softer than "Đ". "Magyar" is not pronounced the same as "Mađar".
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 06:29 PM   #35699
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Just saw this on Reddit

(Lexical Distance Among the Languages of Europe)



Hungarian is definitly very far from others...


Another one more detailed and complex : https://alternativetransport.files.w...1-mid-size.png
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 06:36 PM   #35700
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Ukrainian and Russian are that different?
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