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Old February 23rd, 2017, 12:41 AM   #35721
Nimrˇad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
CZ and Ń in Polish

By the way, does the "zs" means the sound of the "s" in measure, pleasure, leisure (Polish "ż" or "rz")? It was a strange connection I never knew how to pronounce.


So it would be equivalent to the Polish dash above the Ń, Ć, DŹ, Ś, Ź, I told about in my last post.

By the way, in Polish, this dash is not written when there is "i" after the consonant. Then, the "i" already indicates that the consonant is soft and there is no need for dash. There is very few exceptions being foreign loan words, when the 'i" does not soften the consonant.


Does the L in the word mean anything? Why do you write L in Polish, when the Polish equivalent of German J (English Y) or, I believe, also the J from the other Slavic languages, is also J? L in Polish is same as L in English, German etc. ... It's pronounced the same way (or almost the same, sometimes it goes towards the Polish Ł or English W) in probably all the languages using Latin alphabet.

In Portuguese, when L is at the end of the word, it's pronounced as Polish Ł or English W. I was on a Portuguese course in Germany (only one semester) and the teacher was explaining that it should be pronounced as U Because German has no Ł/W sound and U is, in this situation, closest.


In Polish we do not distinguish the sounds by their length, but Hungarians... denote the length by diacritics.

By the way, not many languages have diacritics for the nasal vowels. I know that Portuguese has them, apart from Polish (although they look differently in Portuguese - in Polish we have a "tail" added to the letter, in Portuguese there is a wave above it).


I have always pronounced "during" with just a normal D... Maybe I did it wrong. Actually, there is "y" sound after the "d" in "during", it must kind of soften it...

Because from what I understand, it's equivalent to the Polish DŹ.

The question here is, is it a softened D or a softened DZ or DŻ (I am talking about the Polish spelling of the sounds, for lack of English or German equivalents - ok, German has DSCH for our DŻ).


Yeah... so it will be equivalent to DŹ. A sometimes used slang word for Hungarians in Polish is "madziar", exactly the same as the Hungarian word for Hungarian.

By the way... you Hungarians call us Poles Lengyels Not many languages use this name.

The name Polska, Poland, Polish comes from a tribe called in Polish Polanie (Polans?). Which probably comes from "polana" - a forest meadow.

Lengyel - from a tribe called in Polish Lędzianie (a nasal vowel and a soft consonant - no way to express it in English spelling... something like Lengyans if you use the Hungarian spelling and approximate the nasal "ę" by "en"). From what it comes - I am not sure. My guess is from "ląd" - which has a meaning similar to "land". But let's ask auntie Wikipedia... Polish one, why not, let the other Slavs check what they are able to understand I will translate it below.






This is the language which is closest to Polish in general. Although... almost nobody in Poland knows about its existence It was a surprise to me when I discovered it.
Ly = J. We have two of J (english Y) letter. 'Y' is non-existant letter in Hungarian (when put it alone), just like 'X' ; 'W' or 'Q'. Only found in foreign words.

Zs = Zh, ž, Ж.

Hungarian language doesn't have softening mark, but different letters.

Last edited by Nimrˇad; February 23rd, 2017 at 09:51 AM.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 12:41 AM   #35722
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By the way... just watching a video in German on YouTube and heard... the word Arrangement said the French way.

They really like leaving the loan word pronounced the same way as in the original And really sounding as in the original, so that it absolutely doesn't suit the melody of German (if German has melody, some people may have doubts about it).

Same with Engagement or Restaurant. And many others, e.g. Niveau.

Although there are opposite examples too.

Does the word die Tasse/une tasse (here, the spelling is the same, but they are pronounced totally differently) actually come from French or from German?

In Polish - we sometimes modify the loan words so that they fit our language, sometimes they stay in the original form - but even then, nobody pronounces them really like in the original. Nobody will say here Batman or Superman pronouncing a as the "between a and e" sound as in English. But I believe, Germans will do. Even though they normally never pronounce "a" like that in their language.

Actually, in Batman (for us Poles, of course), the "a" in "man" is pronounced as "a", in Superman - as "e". We say "Supermen" actually.

By the way - a very random thing is in Polish the declension of the loan words. The official rule is that if it's possible to decline the word, we should do it. So even though the Ikea company (or, at least, their division in Poland) says you shouldn't decline their name, actually you should do it according to the rules of the Polish language.

So not "Kupiłem ten stˇł w Ikea", but "Kupiłem ten stˇł w Ikei" (I bought this table in Ikea).

So, it applies to car brands too. But... you say:
"Jadę peugeotem" (I drive a Peugeot)
but
"Jadę renault" (I drive a Renault).

By the way, concerning the pronunciation, we pronounce those names kind of like in French (so neglecting the consonant at the end), but definitely not as thoroughly as Germans would do. Just using the French way of pronouncing it, but definitely the Polish sounds. Using the Polish spelling, one would write Peugeot as "peżo" (you should be already familiar with what ż is), Renault as "reno". That's the top of what we can do pronouncing loan words. We never pronounce it really with the sounds from the original language which aren't present in Polish, there is always kind of an adaptation.

And we even use the kind-of French rules for declension. When I say "jadę peugeotem", I don't omit the "t" any more. It's pronounced (using Polish transcription, English is too random to use it for that, sorry) as "jadę peżotem".

Ok, not really the French rules, we don't pronounce this "t" when the next word begins with a vowel - but we pronounce it when we add a declension suffix, which normally begins in Polish with a vowel.

So Peugeot is declined, but Renault not. Maybe because one would not really know how to do it' "jadę renoltem", "jadę renotem"? We say just "jadę reno" and that's all.

Wow, we are back on-topic Cars, so not far away to roads
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:29 AM   #35723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimrˇad View Post
Ly = J. We have two of J (english Y) letter.
If I'm not mistaken, "lj" is also pronounced [j], at least in "Sßtoralja˙jhely" (but hopefully not in "Ljubljana" ).
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 02:17 AM   #35724
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Do you actually pronounce L and J in Ljubljana - so that using English spelling, it would be Lyublyana?

Because some people in Poland write it just as Lublana.

By the way, Budapest.

In English, pronounced with S.

In Hungarian with SH (as S in Hungarian is generally pronounced as SH).

In Polish, we spell it Budapeszt (where SZ means the SH sound, it works the exactly opposite way with respect to Hungarian).

So English speakers pronounce it wrong, and we do it correctly

Not sure how Germans pronounce it. With S or with SH. Sometimes the S in German is pronounced as SH - but it's usually at the beginning of a word, which is not the case here.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 02:57 AM   #35725
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I wonder about this one... what counts as "real" English pronounciation of the foreign names?

E.g. I think a typical anglophone would say "buda-pest" if they read it
But anyone who actually talks to you about Budapest would say "budapesht" like a Magyar would.
Then again, the people who would talk about Budapest are probably Hungarian or other well-educated Central European types
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 07:53 AM   #35726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
We say "it's a Spanish village to me", even though it has nothing to do with any village.
Literally the same here Greek related phrase is English

And if someone acts crazy and has not got something at the same tame we usually ask them "are you an Italian?" I dunno why. Usually young mums talk that to their children when are reluctant
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 09:45 AM   #35727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
If I'm not mistaken, "lj" is also pronounced [j], at least in "Sßtoralja˙jhely" (but hopefully not in "Ljubljana" ).
LY is one letter, but LJ not.

What you heard, it's unmarked assimilation:
Sßtoralja˙jhely - Sßtora[j]ja˙jhely
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 10:25 AM   #35728
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Slovenian and Albanian are closer to each other than Russian and Polish?
I doubt that too: Albanian language is completely incomprehensible to all Slavic speakers, but I had no major problem to understand any of the Slavic languages. Basic conversation with Russians in Russia was no problem to me. Above presentation may be generally correct but it has some obvious flaws in my opinion.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 12:19 PM   #35729
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There are three completely separated languages in Europe: Greek, Albanian and Basque. Albanians in Kosovo and Slovenians were just allies during the Yugoslav crisis.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:23 PM   #35730
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Basque may be unrelated to any other current language, but it is pretty straightforward to read as, much like German and Italian, is unambiguous in writting. Another thing is understanding it.

And then there's literal Chinese (Not literary Chinese, but literal Chinese, the language itself) and its many characters. Even with its four tones there are many characters with the same reading, that explains why I like to call Shenzhen a town . Then there are the two provinces that only differ in tone and would be spelt the same in latin alphabet without the markers (Shanxi), so the Western one started calling itself Shaanxi.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:24 PM   #35731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I wonder about this one... what counts as "real" English pronounciation of the foreign names?

E.g. I think a typical anglophone would say "buda-pest" if they read it
But anyone who actually talks to you about Budapest would say "budapesht" like a Magyar would.
Then again, the people who would talk about Budapest are probably Hungarian or other well-educated Central European types
Or like me, you simply say "Buda" and no more problems...
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 02:29 PM   #35732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I wonder about this one... what counts as "real" English pronounciation of the foreign names?

E.g. I think a typical anglophone would say "buda-pest" if they read it
But anyone who actually talks to you about Budapest would say "budapesht" like a Magyar would.
Then again, the people who would talk about Budapest are probably Hungarian or other well-educated Central European types
Well... when I am talking to a foreigner, in English, I don't call Warsaw Warszawa, I just say Warsaw.

Although it has already happened to me that a foreigner I talk to knew the city as Warszawa and not Warsaw, so he didn't understand Warsaw and asked me if I am talking about Warszawa He was from a Slavic-language country.

Even talking about Łˇdź, personally, I hate calling it Lodz while talking in a foreign language, but foreigners usually know it pronounced as Lodz and not as Łˇdź... But with Warsaw and Cracow it's different, those cities have English versions of their names, not as in Łˇdź, which is just misspelled (which I can forgive, typing foreign diacritics is often a pain, especially if you don't know them at all) and mispronounced (which cannot be explained by lack of proper keys on the keyboard).

When I was in Budapest, even Hungarians, while talking in English, were calling it Budapest, with S and not SH in pronunciation.

By the way, why is it in English so:
- pronunciation, but
- to pronounce?
And in both cases, I hear the "a" from most European languages...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
And then there's literal Chinese (Not literary Chinese, but literal Chinese, the language itself) and its many characters. Even with its four tones there are many characters with the same reading, that explains why I like to call Shenzhen a town . Then there are the two provinces that only differ in tone and would be spelt the same in latin alphabet without the markers (Shanxi), so the Western one started calling itself Shaanxi.
Americans have two Washingtons... One being a state and one being a "district", so also something like a state (only missing its representation in the Congress).

In Europe it's also nothing unusual to have two towns/cities with same name.

Look at Germany and Frankfurt. They have Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder (in Polish we say Frankfurt nad Menem, Frankfurt nad Odrą - but from what I see, English speakers don't bother translating those river disambiguations and leave them in German). One being a huge city, one - I don't know if it's still a city or just a town (neither in German, nor in Polish, it is distinguished between towns and cities; we and Germans have single words for both) - but it's definitely much smaller.

Łˇdź also has its smaller sister. Actually, even two of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łˇdź,_Poznań_County
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Łˇdź,_Gostyń_County''

We have also pairs of cities or towns with similar names, like Lublin and Lubin. Sometimes people mistake them with each other. Or, we have Stargard Szczeciński and Starogard Gdański (distinguished by just one letter, and a nearby bigger city added to the name) - but just a year ago, Stargard Szczeciński changed its name to Stargard only.

It's common especially for small villages that many of them, in totally different parts of the country, have same names. Sometimes there are even a few ones with the same name in a single neighborhood...

Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
Or like me, you simply say "Buda" and no more problems...
Unless you are just talking about something located in the Pest part
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 02:40 PM   #35733
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Why does Polish only have W for [v] and not "ordinary" V?
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 02:48 PM   #35734
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German has too. "v" in German is the "f" sound.

It must trace back to Latin. Latin had a single letter for the "v" ("w") sound and for the "u" sound. Spelled as "V" (if I am not mistaken, there were no lowercase letters in those times). And it evolved to the letters: "u", "v" and "w". The evolution could look different in different languages. So in English "w" and "u" mean similar sounds (just one is a consonant, one is a vowel), "v" a different sound, in German "u" means one sound and "w" and "v" other similar ones (one is voiced, the other one not). In Polish we totally got rid of "v", leaving "w" only.

Interesting are the names of the "w" letter in different languages. In English it's "double u", in French "double v", in Polish... "wu", or "vu" if spelled using "v".

By the way, it's interesting about Polish, that something like 150 years ago, "y" was actually used to write the "j" sound (I mean, "y" from English). "X" was also in use, but then someone decisive came to an idea: why do we use one letter to write two sounds one after another? It should be one sound = one letter (although we still sometimes use a sequence of a few letters to spell a single sound). I am not sure about "v".

Last edited by Kpc21; February 23rd, 2017 at 02:59 PM.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 02:55 PM   #35735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post

Unless you are just talking about something located in the Pest part
But for foreigners it's the same, some don't even know that the city is composed from Buda and Pest. Buda is simply a better simplification.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 03:46 PM   #35736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
By the way, why is it in English so:
- pronunciation, but
- to pronounce?
I advise you by giving an advice: Never ask why if you want to know something about the vocabulary, grammar or pronunciation of the English language. There is no answer to that question.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 03:58 PM   #35737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Slovenian and Albanian are closer to each other than Russian and Polish?
Quote:
Originally Posted by keber View Post
I doubt that too: Albanian language is completely incomprehensible to all Slavic speakers, but I had no major problem to understand any of the Slavic languages. Basic conversation with Russians in Russia was no problem to me. Above presentation may be generally correct but it has some obvious flaws in my opinion.
As a caption I read "Lexical distance among the languages of Europe".
So my guess is that Albanian and Slovenian, despite being completely different and unrelated languages, might share a big number of words with the same root. And these words could even be unrecognisable at first sight, they may have mutated so much through time that a Slovenian wouldn't recognise it.

On the other hand, Russian and Polish could be languages that look similar but use different words for the same concepts, or something like that. A word in Polish could have an equivalent in Russian which sounds obsolete and old-fashioned, or things like that.

This is just my guess, since I don't know anything about Albanian and Slovenian I just wanted to draw the attention on the fact that we're talking about vocabulary closeness, and not about grammar, structure, phonetics, and so on
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 05:04 PM   #35738
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Quote:
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I advise you by giving an advice: Never ask why if you want to know something about the vocabulary, grammar or pronunciation of the English language. There is no answer to that question.
I have been attending a face to face english class with a native speaker since the last year. Furthermore, he is a professional English teacher. I keep asking him such questions about grammar and exceptions. He always turns white, sweaty and conclude he will find it out.

So the first rule of English is - don't look for deep rules and you'll be on the cloud nine.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 06:19 PM   #35739
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Originally Posted by keber View Post
I doubt that too: Albanian language is completely incomprehensible to all Slavic speakers, but I had no major problem to understand any of the Slavic languages. Basic conversation with Russians in Russia was no problem to me. Above presentation may be generally correct but it has some obvious flaws in my opinion.
I am eager to know if you can read and pronounce Makedonski or Bulgarian or Russian language? Since this is not a language thread, I apologize but I really doubt that you actually can understand them.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 07:06 PM   #35740
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