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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #35921
ChrisZwolle
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In my opinion, it's clear that the Civic overtaking on the shoulder is doing an illegal and dangerous move. However the 'professional' truck driver is also at fault, hindering traffic with excessively slow overtaking. I'm guessing there is a reason why the video ends abruptly, not showing the lineup of cars queueing behind the truck.

Theoretically you can win a few minutes on a long trip with overtaking like this, but in reality that time advantage vanishes with congestion, searching for a parking spot, traffic lights, etc.

Some countries completely ban all truck overtaking, for example in Slovakia and Switzerland.

If there is a substantial speed difference, overtaking would take only a few seconds. I have no problems with that, but these slow overtaking moves are a primary reason why other motorists don't want to do anything to help truckers.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:22 PM   #35922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Theoretically you can win a few minutes on a long trip with overtaking like this, but in reality that time advantage vanishes with congestion, searching for a parking spot, traffic lights, etc.
Just on the contrary. You manage to catch an earlier green light, so you can even earn a minute or two more.

Quote:
If there is a substantial speed difference, overtaking would take only a few seconds.
But, unfortunately, the trucks have speed limiters installed, so they cannot accelerate to more than those 85-90 km/h while overtaking.

The other truck (one being overpassed) doesn't bother to slow down just for a moment, although it doesn't cost much and it shortens the overpassing time significantly.

I agree that the Honda driver made a dangerous move, but it's not the main problem here.

The best idea is to build motorways with 3 lanes, but it costs more.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:23 PM   #35923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
We have recently had in Poland a discussion about an idea to ban the lorries to overpass.

The phenomenon shown in the video is really annoying, I fully agree with that, but a total ban on overpassing is not a good idea. Maybe a rule that when a lorry is being overpassed by another lorry, it has to slow down, so that the overpassing will last maximally X seconds?
And how exactly would you enforce this?

There is no need for new laws, in roads or in other parts of normal, civil life. Those already in exercise are enough: problem is nobody cares to enforce them, they are only used in courts, after accidents.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:27 PM   #35924
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There is a gas pedal by purpose in most cars. Such overtaking actions are just idiotic. If the truck drives 53 mph, there is no reason to overtake at 54 mph and block the entire road.
There are at least two douches in the video. I wonder how many seconds both of them saved.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:30 PM   #35925
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Some countries completely ban all truck overtaking, for example in Slovakia and Switzerland.
To be more precise (at least in SK), overtaking for trucks is banned, unless the road is within a city, or has three or more lanes (in such case, two rightmost lanes could be used by lorries). The rule is breached very frequently though, especially by Polish drivers.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 10:55 PM   #35926
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Compulsory rest draconian rules are the only thing that really changed the many ways truck drivers had skirted mandatory rest laws for 20 years before this "no tolerance, high fine" regime was implemented.

If you want to see what happens in absence of that, take a look at vehicles exempt from these rules, such as express van delivery services.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 11:07 PM   #35927
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In Germany you have 45 seconds to complete overtaking (however, it is very rarely actually enforced). By two long trucks it means a speed difference of approx. 4 km/h.
However, even if overtaking takes two and a half hours, using the shoulder and overtaking both trucks in the illegal side is not acceptible any way.
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Old March 14th, 2017, 11:24 PM   #35928
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Well, drivers know how to cheat this system anyway.

See, for example:


(by the way - Polish policemen communicating with a Lithuanian driver in Russian)

By the way, what happens when the driver gets stuck in a massive traffic jam and it happens that his driving time is up, although he simply didn't manage to park in a legal place due to long waiting in the jam? Is there an exception for such cases in the law?
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Old March 15th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #35929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In my opinion, it's clear that the Civic overtaking on the shoulder is doing an illegal and dangerous move.
Of course, that is self-evident. But the root cause is the moron with the camera.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 12:32 AM   #35930
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Quote:
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Of course, that is self-evident. But the root cause is the moron with the camera.
I would not say that. The lorry is pretty much visible (especially in weather conditions taken on the camera) and drivers behind obviously were able to see him.

But nobody, again, nobody would expect a car driving 130 kph on a hard shoulder. Nobody. It was stupid. very stupid.

The lorry driver presented high level of arrogance. But the Civic driver presented stupidity, immaturity and lack of brain cells at the same time which is much worse.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 12:34 AM   #35931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post

By the way, what happens when the driver gets stuck in a massive traffic jam and it happens that his driving time is up, although he simply didn't manage to park in a legal place due to long waiting in the jam? Is there an exception for such cases in the law?
The authoritative text is the EU regulation EC 561/2006 . The Article 12 states the following:

Provided that road safety is not thereby jeopardised and to enable the vehicle to reach a suitable stopping place, the driver may depart from Articles 6 to 9 to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of persons, of the vehicle or its load. The driver shall indicate the reason for such departure manually on the record sheet of the recording equipment or on a printout from the recording equipment or in the duty roster, at the latest on arrival at the suitable stopping place.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 12:48 AM   #35932
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I would not say that. The lorry is pretty much visible (especially in weather conditions taken on the camera) and drivers behind obviously were able to see him.
What does the visibility have to do with the case? The moron blocked the motorway for an extended time. That lead to another moron taking a stupid action. The root cause of the conflict was the behavior of the moron one. That does not make the moron two less guilty.

The side by side driving on motorways at 0.5 kph speed difference seems to be an international hobby among truckers. That leads to a time saving of about 25 seconds per 100 kilometers. Conclusion: To become a truck driver better not to know math.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 12:59 AM   #35933
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There is no justification to overtake on the shoulder, even if there is a truck hogging the left lane.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 01:05 AM   #35934
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Some driver in Switzerland got fined 3000 CHF (€ 2800) for passing on the right on a motorway a few years ago.

http://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/aargau...nken-128253873

Now that's an excessive fine.

A common complaint in the Netherlands is that it is cheaper to steal stuff at a shop than drive 30 km/h over the speed limit. Some of the fines are not in line with the seriousness of the offense.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 01:25 AM   #35935
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Tocai and Tokaj are both high quality wines with an history. Nobody copied anybody.

Prove that in Romania they produce Grana Padano since 1400 and I won't oppose it.
It would be much better to let produce anyone anything. Just keep strict standards controls on certain product types and let the market solve out the trademarks.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 01:29 AM   #35936
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But, unfortunately, the trucks have speed limiters installed, so they cannot accelerate to more than those 85-90 km/h while overtaking.
That's EU regulation, down with EU!

But really, those limiters are so bad. Where I live they came up with same law more recently, but limiter is at 105 km/h. The trucks do the same thing... its horrible. Before at least one would go 110 or 115 and there wasn't really a problem.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 10:43 AM   #35937
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So I'm looking at these language courses offered at my new job in Norway. We don't need to learn Norwegian but it obviously is of immense help, and prevents social isolation outside the job.

Then, I realize there are two Norwegian languages, and that I need to pick up one of them to learn. I knew there were some minimally spoken sami-related languages in the north, but I will live in Bergen, I hadn't imagined they had two official versions of Norwegian.
Bokmål is most used by a big margin, and Bergen is an island of Bokmål in an Nynorsk area.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 04:23 PM   #35938
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But really, those limiters are so bad.
No, they are not.

I believe a big fraction of truck drivers do not know what the markings "60", "80", "100", etc in their dashboard mean. Better to have delimeters.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 05:03 PM   #35939
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A common complaint in the Netherlands is that it is cheaper to steal stuff at a shop than drive 30 km/h over the speed limit. Some of the fines are not in line with the seriousness of the offense.
In Finland, the traffic fine system is primarily for money collection. The top record fine so far is 112,000 euros, from driving 82 km/h on a road where the speed limit is 60 km/h.

For speeding, the system is the following:

1) There is a tolerance of 6 km/h. Thus, driving 86 at 80 has no real implication. (The owner of the car might receive a letter from the police.)

2) Up to 20 km/h overspeed, a fixed fee applies.

3) Over 20 km/h, the fine is relative to the income. Not to property, income only, no upper limit.

4) Over 35 km/h, possibility to lose the driving license for 1 to 6 months.

If you make a mistake, and think the speed limit is say 100 when it really is 80, and you count on the tolerance, the case 3) applies. If the millionaire had driven 80 instead of 82, he would have received a ticket of 115 euros, not 112,000.

The number of accidental mistakes is maximized in a clever way: The changed speed limit is typically shown only at the right hand side of the road. If you are legally overtaking a truck at a place where the speed limit changes, you will not be aware of the change.

The fines are budgeted as an income at the state budget, 193 million euros for this year. About 80% are collected from traffic, and about 80% of the traffic fines are collected from speeding.
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Old March 15th, 2017, 05:07 PM   #35940
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Some 80-90% of the number of speeding tickets in the Netherlands are also issued for less than 10 km/h over the speed limit.

But keep in mind that in the early 2000s a massive downgrading took place, most rural roads except major roads were reduced from 80 to 60 km/h, often without any significant change in road layout, and many urban arterials with limited conflict points were downgraded from 70 to 50 km/h. So what was a simple 10 km/h offense in 2000 could be a 30 km/h offense today, with a massive fine.

There isn't much enforcement for any traffic rules other than speed, because that can be automatically collected. Much of the other traffic rules require surveillance, which they don't do much.
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