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Old June 7th, 2017, 09:37 AM   #36341
Buffaboy
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I'd hate to crash the linguistics class, but does anyone know what happened to the AARoads forum? It's been in maintenance mode for about a week.
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Old June 7th, 2017, 10:07 AM   #36342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
What? That's rubbish, I pronounce it correctly and it's not hard.
According to my experience, the less you concentrate on pronouncing, the better you pronounce it.

I read many English texts. And there are many new words to me I am able to look it up on a dictionary, but I have no chance (except google.translate) to hear it in a meaningful sentence. Sometimes the words look very strange like:
Although, strive for, concisely, precisely. These are the words I was confused by when I saw them for the first time (years ago). When I finally realized how are they pronounced, I just give up reading it letter by letter, just use the learned pronunciation.

This is interesting too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx48esCq1Wo
Most of people here uses the long "EE" at the beginning of the word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post

Unlike English, though, Slovak is a phonetic language. You don't have ghost consonants and random letters and ghotis and whatnot all over the place. Easier to learn.
Unfortunately it is not, however it used to be before the official codification. I would say 95 % Slovaks misuse y/i in various cases. We have even the list of nouns with exceptions pupils are obligated to learn. Different logic is applied on this issue depending on declination of words. We even have the so called noun-declination-patterns you just have to learn, there are only few regularities.

The typical problem concerns adjectives:
malý chlapec - little boy
malí chlapci - little boys.

I think the Croatian or Serbian languages are more easier to learn.
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Old June 7th, 2017, 10:41 AM   #36343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
There are some town names in German that contain th. Wörth near Karlsruhe or Hürth near Cologne. I believed they are pronounced as the "proper" Germanic th - but I asked a German, and according to him, it's pronounced just as "t".


Does Tor in Swedish has any other meaning than a name of a mythological character? It's funny that originally it was a very powerful god, like Zeus from the Greek mythology (or at least he could also use thunders) - and Tor in German means what...? A dumb man. Or a gate.
The closest word in Swedish is "torg", meaning a town square, market, etc. "Torv" in Danish, "Tori" in Finnish. ("Tor" is sometimes used as an abbreviation of torsdag, Thursday.)

The word "torg" has its roots in ancient Scandinavian and Slavic languages; originally meaning commerce. The name of the city of Turku in Finland shares the same roots.

Even if the Scandinavian languages belong to the family of Germanic family, one should be careful. For example, öl is beer in Sweden (øl in Denmark) and oil in Germany.
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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:58 AM   #36344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Dutch has a number of digraphs that may be confusing too. In the case of 'ij', if it is the first letter of the sentence or a name, both are capitalized.

So the river near my city is the IJssel and not Ijssel. In Flanders they used to write Ij but apparently they are also switching to IJ. In Dutch 'ei' and 'ij' have the same pronunciation. Y is called a 'Greek IJ' or I-Grec, but Y is not natively used in Dutch, only in names and loanwords.
I find the spelling of "IJssel" weird, as if someone accidentally pressed the J key with the shift one still on, "Ijssel" with just the first letter capitalized would be more "natural" (Of course, I always can spell it as "Yssel"). It used to be the case in Spanish back when 'ch' and 'll' were standalone letters (as well as 'rr', but that digraph only happens in the middle of a word), but now are treated only as digraphs and just the first letter is capitalized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaboy View Post
I'd hate to crash the linguistics class, but does anyone know what happened to the AARoads forum? It's been in maintenance mode for about a week.
AFAIK they need a new server for it. I thought there was a scheduled overnight maintenance as I first encountered that on Sunday morning CEST (the time zone most of us here are in).
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Old June 7th, 2017, 01:20 PM   #36345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
I read many English texts. And there are many new words to me I am able to look it up on a dictionary, but I have no chance (except google.translate) to hear it in a meaningful sentence. Sometimes the words look very strange like:
Although, strive for, concisely, precisely. These are the words I was confused by when I saw them for the first time (years ago). When I finally realized how are they pronounced, I just give up reading it letter by letter, just use the learned pronunciation.
If you don't mind me asking, when you first saw them, how did you parse them?

I usually read "although" as a contraction of "all though" (mostly because it is) -- although "though" is hard as **** for just about anyone to say. To give you some idea, "though" and "dough" have merged in my dialect. When I look at words like "concisely" and "precisely", I naturally break them down into parts -- "con-cise-ly", "pre-cise-ly". (It also helps that I know that concision and precision are related words.) Usually in English the rule is final silent E's -- by stem, which aren't always word-final -- lengthen the preceding vowel; it's when we pronounce words like "live" with a short vowel that's irregular.
Quote:
This is interesting too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx48esCq1Wo
Most of people here uses the long "EE" at the beginning of the word.
I think the alternation here is in free association? Like I'd say "I went to an EE-vent at the EH-vent hall..." sort of thing.
Quote:
Unfortunately it is not, however it used to be before the official codification. I would say 95 % Slovaks misuse y/i in various cases. We have even the list of nouns with exceptions pupils are obligated to learn. Different logic is applied on this issue depending on declination of words. We even have the so called noun-declination-patterns you just have to learn, there are only few regularities.

The typical problem concerns adjectives:
malý chlapec - little boy
malí chlapci - little boys.

I think the Croatian or Serbian languages are more easier to learn.
I don't think any language has a 100%-perfect sound-letter correspondence, though. And every language has some arcane syntactic rule or another that nobody can use properly, like who vs. whom in English, or how the passé composé operates when it takes an object in French, and so on ...
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Old June 7th, 2017, 01:44 PM   #36346
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Old June 7th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #36347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Do the Serbo-Croatian languages use the same letter (just "h") to write both the former "ch" and "h" sounds?

Because the equivalent of "hvala" in Polish is "chwała". Not meaning "thank you", but still meaning "glory".
In Slavic languages there are a lot of false friend words. You just posted an example.
I will tell you an example, The verb Vredan in Serbian means valuable, whereas in Bulgarian "vreden" means damaging.
The verb "Karam" in Bulgarian means "drive" (car, ride a bike). In MK for "karam' we mean "at dispute" with someone.
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Old June 7th, 2017, 06:33 PM   #36348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
The verb "Karam" in Bulgarian means "drive" (car, ride a bike). In MK for "karam' we mean "at dispute" with someone.
The same meaning also exists in Bulgarian - karam se.


In Serbian it means to f*ck
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Old June 7th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #36349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
I don't think any language has a 100%-perfect sound-letter correspondence, though.
Serbian does. They even change words to correspond to pronunciation, e.g. "Srbija" (Serbia), but "srpski" (Serbian).
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Old June 7th, 2017, 09:59 PM   #36350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
In Slavic languages there are a lot of false friend words. You just posted an example.
I will tell you an example, The verb Vredan in Serbian means valuable, whereas in Bulgarian "vreden" means damaging.
The verb "Karam" in Bulgarian means "drive" (car, ride a bike). In MK for "karam' we mean "at dispute" with someone.
I learn BCS and find them (false friends) almost every day. Ie. BCS's "sposobnost" and Polish "sposobność" mean relatively: ability and opportunity.

"Wredny" in Polish means 'nasty'.
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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:15 PM   #36351
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"Pravda" in Serbian means "justice", while in Czech it means "truth".
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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:34 PM   #36352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
The typical problem concerns adjectives:
malý chlapec - little boy
malí chlapci - little boys.
But what's the problem? Are they pronounced in Slovak with the same sound at the and (y and i)?

In Polish it's two distinct sounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
The closest word in Swedish is "torg", meaning a town square, market, etc. "Torv" in Danish, "Tori" in Finnish. ("Tor" is sometimes used as an abbreviation of torsdag, Thursday.)

The word "torg" has its roots in ancient Scandinavian and Slavic languages; originally meaning commerce. The name of the city of Turku in Finland shares the same roots.
I think I was writing about it here already some months ago, but that's true. In Polish we have targ (not meaning a town square though, but still a market for buying different things), although a more popular word is rynek (being a very old loan word from the German "Ring"). Which means then not only a market for buying staff, but also a town square or market in the abstract sense, used in the science of economy.

But Croatian (so Serbian probably too) has the word "trg" (by the way, it's one of those their vowel-less words - the consonant "r" plays a role of a vowel substitute and constitutes a syllable), which means not only a market for buying things, but a town square, like the Swedish "torg", too.

This must have some Proto-Indo-European roots.

You mentioned Turku, but if I remember well, also the name of the city of Trieste (currently in Italy, but formerly, if I am not wrong, also in Slovenia/Yugoslavia) has something to do with this word.

I checked and Wikipedia says:
Quote:
The original pre-Roman name of the city, Tergeste, with the -est- suffix typical of Illyrian, is speculated to be derived from a hypothetical Venetic word *terg- "market", etymologically related to Old Church Slavonic tьrgъ "market" (whence Slovenian and Croatian trg, tržnica, and the Scandinavian borrowing torg).[3][4][5] Roman authors also transliterated the name as Tergestum. Modern names of the city include: Italian: Trieste, Slovene: Trst, German: Triest, Hungarian: Trieszt, Croatian: Trst, Serbian: Трст/Trst, and Greek: Τεργέστη/Tergesti.
So it's supposed that this word existed also in Venetic, which was a Romance language... It MUST have Proto-Indo-European roots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
Even if the Scandinavian languages belong to the family of Germanic family, one should be careful. For example, öl is beer in Sweden (øl in Denmark) and oil in Germany.
It means that beer is like oil for Scandinavians

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
I find the spelling of "IJssel" weird, as if someone accidentally pressed the J key with the shift one still on, "Ijssel" with just the first letter capitalized would be more "natural" (Of course, I always can spell it as "Yssel"). It used to be the case in Spanish back when 'ch' and 'll' were standalone letters (as well as 'rr', but that digraph only happens in the middle of a word), but now are treated only as digraphs and just the first letter is capitalized.
Polish also has some weird capitalization rules.

Let's say you write two sentences about cars of a specific brand:
1. I drive my Ford to work every day.
2. I have seen a red Ford on the road.
3. My car was produced by Ford.

In the first and the second sentence, when they're translated to Polish, the "Ford" name should be spelled lowercase. Because you use the brand name to refer to a specific, single item. You aren't talking about the Ford brand or Ford company, but just about a car.

But this is probably the most ignored spelling rule in Polish nowadays. I rarely see such names spelled correctly, so that it even looks weird when it happens to be correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
In Slavic languages there are a lot of false friend words. You just posted an example.
I will tell you an example, The verb Vredan in Serbian means valuable, whereas in Bulgarian "vreden" means damaging.
The verb "Karam" in Bulgarian means "drive" (car, ride a bike). In MK for "karam' we mean "at dispute" with someone.
If you have a word like dywan (divan or anything like that), what does it mean in your language?

In Polish it's a carpet, although from what I know, in many languages it means a sofa.

Because it's a loan word from - if I am not wrong - Turkish. And - maybe I am generalizing too much - but in those cultural circles, like Middle East, Turkey, North Africa a carpet is (or used to be) used for the same purpose as we in Europe use a sofa for. But maybe I am wrong, correct me if so.

Karam in Polish means "I punish". It's the first person singular of "karać" - "to punish". And Polish allows to neglect the subject in the sentence when it's obvious, same as for example in Portuguese.

Sometimes the meanings in two languages are just opposite. Then it's supposedly a false friend, but it may help learning. Not only in Slavic languages. German: Gegenteil, English: counterpart. It's exactly the case. The meaning of the German counterpart of the word counterpart is the "Gegenteil" of its English meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Serbian does. They even change words to correspond to pronunciation, e.g. "Srbija" (Serbia), but "srpski" (Serbian).
So you have more pronunciation-spelling correspondence than Polish, where we don't change the spelling in such a case, only the pronunciation changes.

And hardly any Polish speaker notices it If you ask someone, who doesn't have much linguistic knowledge, whether the, let's say, "g" in "wróg" and "wrogowie" (enemy/enemies) is pronounced the same, or differently, it's quite likely he will tell it's the same. Actually, even I would have doubts about that it's different (and "g" in wróg is pronounced as "k"), but the linguists say it's actually pronounced as "k" in this case.

Same with "Serbia" and "serbski" (or, for example, "Serb" - also meaning Serbian, but as a nationality) - the dictionary says the pronunciation in Polish is exactly as you even spell it in Serbian, but I wouldn't say it's pronounced with "p" Nobody is deliberately pronouncing it with "p" instead of "b", it comes automatically.
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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:37 PM   #36353
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Something odd I've noticed in the forums is the tendency for our Slavic friends to misspell "length" as "lenght".

Neither are particularly phonetic, of course. But I would pronounce them differently. "Length" ends with that weird English th-thingy -- the one that becomes T or D in most Germanic languages and can be approximated with F -- while "lenght" comes across sounding like Lent. Literally.
that's because in all Slavic languages we would simply wirte it just lengt
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Old June 7th, 2017, 11:59 PM   #36354
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Because the equivalent of "hvala" in Polish is "chwała". Not meaning "thank you", but still meaning "glory".
It is exactly same in Slovak (Czech), chvála means glory. But also when I first read Polish I was confused, południe means south in Polish, but midday in Slovak. It is similar with północ: north in Polish, but midnight in Slovak and Czech.
Interestingly is, that Czech is for Slovaks the only Slavic langiage with no false friends words, at least I can not think of any. We have very similar languages, the difference is probably similar as between Dutch and Flemish, see this video for example.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 12:18 AM   #36355
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Południe and północ mean both midday/midnight and south/north in Polish.

The geographic directions in Polish are:
- north - północ (midday)
- east - wschód (sunrise)
- south - południe (midnight)
- west - zachód (sunset)

The names come from that "południe" is the place where the sun is at the midday, "północ" - the place where it "should" be at the midnight, "wschód" where it rises, "zachód" where it sets. Very simple.

What names for the geographical directions do you use in Czech/Slovak? The international ones, like in English, German, French etc.?

There is quite many groups of words that are loan words (from Latin or something similar) in many languages, but they aren't loan words in Polish. Like most of the names of the months (except for March and May), or some very basic mathematical terminology. Which languages do have their own, not borrowed words for an integral, for example? In Polish it's całka. Derivative is pochodna (although German has its own word here too - Ableitung), differentiating is różniczkowanie. There is no single word for calculus (the calculus, the one related specifically to derivatives and integrals). There is a word "rachunek", but it refers to many different areas of mathematics (like "rachunek prawdopodobieństwa" - "probability theory" one would probably say in English), you must specify that it's, let's say, "rachunek różniczkowy i całkowy" (differential and integral calculus), saying just "rachunek" will not work.

Or - in linguistics - the names of the noun cases. Many languages, even the ones that, unlike English, have cases in general, use the Latin names. And in Polish (Slavic people will probably understand the names and they will be simpler than the Latin-originated ones), we have:
Mianownik (kto? co?) rachunek / rachunki
Dopełniacz (kogo? czego?) rachunku / rachunków
Celownik (komu? czemu?) rachunkowi / rachunkom
Biernik (kogo? co?) rachunek / rachunki
Narzędnik (kim? czym?) rachunkiem / rachunkami
Miejscownik (o kim? o czym?) rachunku / rachunkach
Wołacz (o!) rachunku! / rachunki!

Last edited by Kpc21; June 8th, 2017 at 12:30 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 12:32 AM   #36356
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
If you have a word like dywan (divan or anything like that), what does it mean in your language?

In Polish it's a carpet, although from what I know, in many languages it means a sofa.

Because it's a loan word from - if I am not wrong - Turkish. And - maybe I am generalizing too much - but in those cultural circles, like Middle East, Turkey, North Africa a carpet is (or used to be) used for the same purpose as we in Europe use a sofa for. But maybe I am wrong, correct me if so.

Karam in Polish means "I punish". It's the first person singular of "karać" - "to punish". And Polish allows to neglect the subject in the sentence when it's obvious, same as for example in Portuguese.

Sometimes the meanings in two languages are just opposite. Then it's supposedly a false friend, but it may help learning. Not only in Slavic languages. German: Gegenteil, English: counterpart. It's exactly the case. The meaning of the German counterpart of the word counterpart is the "Gegenteil" of its English meaning.
Oh I see, we have too much in common.
Yes Divan is sofa, but its rarely used.
Karam in MK means more like I shout, and when someone says "Go karam" means I shout at him. But it can be considered as a punishment also.
Also Poluden means "it has gone crazy" or midday but the second its less commonly used. Polnok means midnight and its a standard form.
Sever (north), Jug (South), Istok(East), Zapad(West.)
You can imagine that the proto-Slavic was one language and it developed in many different directions over such a long distances and period of time and today we can still understand each other at least a bit
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Old June 8th, 2017, 12:33 AM   #36357
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We have local ones, sever (north), juh - jih (south), západ (west) and východ (east). However, names of months are different, Slovaks have chosen international ones (január, február....), while Czechs have preserved local ones (leden, únor....)

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Old June 8th, 2017, 01:13 AM   #36358
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The Czech ones are anyway different from the Polish ones, so it's truly local

Don't the zapad and wychod have same literal meanings as zachód and wschód in Polish? "Wychod" sounds for me something like "going out" (here - of the sun onto the sky), "zapad" - in Polish when something "zapada się", it falls under the floor. And the sun falls behind the horizon.

Comparison of the months names:
English - Polish - Czech
January - styczeń - leden
February - luty - únor
March - marzec - březen
April - kwiecień - duben
May - maj - květen
June - czerwiec - červen
July - lipiec - červenec
August - sierpień - srpen
September - wrzesień - září
October - październik - říjen
November - listopad - listopad
December - grudzień - prosinec

So... the names of June, August and November are equivalent in Czech and Polish. The Polish name of April is equivalent to the Czech name of May. The Czech name of July is of the same origin as the Czech name of June, so it's also an equivalent of the Polish name of June.

The origins of the Polish names (those more or less obvious ones that I know without checking in sources) are as follows:
1. styczeń - from "styk" - point of contact, where two elements touch each other (no idea about any good English word for that)
4. kwiecień - from "kwiat" - flower - because it's in Spring and many flowers bloom
6. czerwiec - I am not sure, but it's probably from "czerw", which is a word for a larva of an insect, butterfly or something like that of a specific species
7. lipiec - from "lipa" - lime tree
8. sierpień - from "sierp" - a primitive farming tool (sickle)
9, wrzesień - from "wrzos" - a purple flower that blooms in forests in this month (heather)
11. listopad - from leaves falling from trees
12. grudzień - from "gruda", "grudka" meaning a compacted piece of a loose material or a dense liquid, for example if you are making a cake, you mix or knead the dough till you get rid of them; here it's probably about such pieces of snow or ice

What about the week days? In Polish we have:
1. poniedziałek - from "po niedzieli" - "after the Sunday"
2. wtorek - from "wtóry" being an old word for "drugi" - "the second one"
3. środa - meaning it's in the middle of the week
4. czwartek - from "czwarty" - "the fourth one"
5. piątek - from "piąty" - "the fifth one"
6. sobota - the only name being a loan word (like Sabbath)
7. niedziela - meaning the day on which you don't work

It's interesting that in Russian, the word "niediela" means... a week. It sounds like you are supposed not to work for the whole week And the Russian name of Sunday is a word meaning "resurrection" - this makes sense.

Last edited by Kpc21; June 8th, 2017 at 01:19 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 01:22 AM   #36359
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Same with "Serbia" and "serbski" (or, for example, "Serb" - also meaning Serbian, but as a nationality) - the dictionary says the pronunciation in Polish is exactly as you even spell it in Serbian, but I wouldn't say it's pronounced with "p" Nobody is deliberately pronouncing it with "p" instead of "b", it comes automatically.
Well, we call the Croatian capital 'Zagrep'.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 01:34 AM   #36360
Kpc21
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For us, it's Zagrzeb. With rz, pronounced as ż (that means, as s in pleasure - English has this sound, even though it doesn't have any standard way of representing it; when an originally cyrylic name is represented in English, then it's spelled as zh).

I had an interesting situation, when I was talking with someone Slavic (but not Polish; Bulgarian, if I remember well) in English, I mentioned Warsaw and the person could not understand what city it is. I had to explain that I meant the Polish capital. And then... he got that I meant "Warszawa"

It's interesting how this English name was created. In German, it's Warschau, so the pronunciation is more similar to the Polish one, the word looks like a step between Polish and English. Actually, the shape of the word is as in English, but the original sounds of W (V) and SH are maintained. In English changed to the English W and to S.

But it's the opposite in case of Cracow. The English spelling is halfway between the Polish (Kraków) and the German (Krakau) one.

Anyway, there are more crazy city names. The capital of China used to be spelled in English as Peking, now it's spelled as Beijing. But in many languages it's still Peking-like, for example it's Pekin in Polish.

In case of the capital of North Korea - it's Polish spelling has recently changed. It used to be spelled Phenian, which came from the cyrylic representation, which was something like Пхенян. The problem was, when it was converted to the Latin alphabet, many Poles were trying to pronounce "ph" at the beginning as "f", like in English, plus the "nia" connection was palatalized by the people pronouncing this name, which was supposedly also wrong. Now, the official spelling is Pjongjang, reflecting the English name Pyongyang.

Although it's also a bit wrong. The "ng" connection represents a specific n-like sound in English, and Poles will typically pronounce it just as two consonants: n and g. Which will be incorrect.

Last edited by Kpc21; June 8th, 2017 at 01:41 AM.
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