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Old June 8th, 2017, 10:53 AM   #36361
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Old June 8th, 2017, 05:55 PM   #36362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Well, we call the Croatian capital 'Zagrep'.
And the Austrian capital 'the Danube'
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Old June 8th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #36363
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
And the Austrian capital 'the Danube'
no, they have different word. poor river is female in Slovenia, while c
city is still male.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 10:05 PM   #36364
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Perfect match though
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Old June 8th, 2017, 10:42 PM   #36365
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
And the Austrian capital 'the Danube'
Or you call the Danube Vienna. Up yours.
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Old June 8th, 2017, 10:55 PM   #36366
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no, they have different word. poor river is female in Slovenia, while c
city is still male.
Time for this sign.

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Old June 9th, 2017, 12:09 AM   #36367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
For us, it's Zagrzeb. With rz, pronounced as ż (that means, as s in pleasure - English has this sound, even though it doesn't have any standard way of representing it; when an originally cyrylic name is represented in English, then it's spelled as zh).

I had an interesting situation, when I was talking with someone Slavic (but not Polish; Bulgarian, if I remember well) in English, I mentioned Warsaw and the person could not understand what city it is. I had to explain that I meant the Polish capital. And then... he got that I meant "Warszawa"

It's interesting how this English name was created. In German, it's Warschau, so the pronunciation is more similar to the Polish one, the word looks like a step between Polish and English. Actually, the shape of the word is as in English, but the original sounds of W (V) and SH are maintained. In English changed to the English W and to S.

But it's the opposite in case of Cracow. The English spelling is halfway between the Polish (Kraków) and the German (Krakau) one.
Cracow? That's ... uh ... not it. We write "Krakow" for that city.

Most Polish place names used in English nowadays have Polish roots. That's why we use "Wroclaw" (looks like roke-claw to me) and Szczecin (dafuq?!?) instead of e.g. Breslau or Stettin nowadays.
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Anyway, there are more crazy city names. The capital of China used to be spelled in English as Peking, now it's spelled as Beijing. But in many languages it's still Peking-like, for example it's Pekin in Polish.
Mandarin is actually pretty crazy. It makes an aspiration distinction, not a voicing one, so /b d g/ are technically not correct. But it's probably closer than the old Wade-Gilles romanization, which is where "Peking" comes from.
Quote:
In case of the capital of North Korea - it's Polish spelling has recently changed. It used to be spelled Phenian, which came from the cyrylic representation, which was something like Пхенян. The problem was, when it was converted to the Latin alphabet, many Poles were trying to pronounce "ph" at the beginning as "f", like in English, plus the "nia" connection was palatalized by the people pronouncing this name, which was supposedly also wrong. Now, the official spelling is Pjongjang, reflecting the English name Pyongyang.

Although it's also a bit wrong. The "ng" connection represents a specific n-like sound in English, and Poles will typically pronounce it just as two consonants: n and g. Which will be incorrect.
Isn't Hangul an alphabetic script anyway? Why not just use a direct transliteration from 평양?
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Old June 9th, 2017, 12:51 AM   #36368
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And what is the direct transliteration from 평양?

Krakow or Cracow? It's all the same when an English native speaker tries to pronounce it. Anyway, the German name of the city (Krakau) must have been inspired by it.

I was always taught it's Cracow in English. It's difficult to check which version is more common in English because typing "Krakow" into Google will also find all the entries in Polish texts (as Kraków). But, for example, also a local engineering university calls itself in English: Cracow University of Technology.

It's (and it has always been) Cracovia in Latin, so it's nothing wrong with the spelling with C in English.

Quote:
Most Polish place names used in English nowadays have Polish roots.
Actually, probably all of them, unless they have non-Polish roots in Polish. But even then, they came to English through Polish.

Anyway, thinking about it, probably only two cities in Poland have distinct English names: Warsaw and Cracow. For all others, the Polish names are used in English. Unlike German - not only many cities in Poland, but even numerous small Polish towns have distinct German names. Usually because they used to be located in Germany or other German-speaking country (like the Teutonic Order country).

Also many of the Polish regions have English names (Mazovia, Silesia, Pomerania) and the Vistula river. Those names, as I believe, come from Latin. The Polish names are a little bit different (Mazowsze, Śląsk, Pomorze; river: Wisła). We have also regions called Wielkopolska and Małopolska, the names of which can be a little bit awkwardly translated as Greater Poland and Lesser Poland. And, I forgot, the Tatras mountain range (Polish: Tatry).

But it's more of a problem when I want to talk in English about the river on the Polish-German border or the mountains on the Polish-Czech border. In Polish, the river is Odra, the mountains - Sudety. In German, the river is Oder, the mountains Sudeten. I don't know about Czech, but probably something very similar to the Polish name. And then I want to mention the name in English, and sometimes I just mention both because I have no idea whether someone will know them by the Polish or by the German name.

Actually, the name Wrocław should be pronounced as "vrots-wav". About Szczecin... probably many have troubles pronouncing it, because they use the phonetic transcription in the city logo:



Although in English it should be simple - it will be something like "shchechin". The first "ch" not palatalized, the second one palatalized (English doesn't have this distinction, the English "ch" is something in between, usually more towards the not palatalized version).

Poznań - should be simple ("poznan" with the second "n" palatalized), "Gdańsk" the same... Łódź - well, this one few foreigners can pronounce correctly, but it's because of the diacritics, they interpret it just as Lodz, which makes quite a difference in pronunciation ("lotz" vs. "wooch" with palatalized "ch"). When someone abroad asks me about my city, when I say Łódź, I must explain that he probably knows the city as Lodz.

Kielce - shouldn't be a problem at all (just "kieltse", "kieltze" - remember that "ts", "tz" or however you write it phonetically in English, makes a single consonant in Polish, hence it's just a single letter "c" in the Polish spelling). Rzeszów - this one may be difficult. It is "zheshoof" where "zh" is like "j" in French or "s" in words like pleasure, measure etc.

Last edited by Kpc21; June 9th, 2017 at 01:05 AM.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 01:18 AM   #36369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
And what is the direct transliteration from 평양?
p-yeo-ng ř-ya-ng, when I looked it up. C'mon, those are your palatal Slavic vowels, those should be easy for you.
[/quote]
Krakow or Cracow? It's all the same when an English native speaker tries to pronounce it. Anyway, the German name of the city (Krakau) must have been inspired by it.

I was always taught it's Cracow in English. It's difficult to check which version is more common in English because typing "Krakow" into Google will also find all the entries in Polish texts (as Kraków). But, for example, also a local engineering university calls itself in English: Cracow University of Technology.[/quote]
It would be pronounced the same, but "Cracow" looks super archaic. It communicates that the speaker still calls Gdansk Danzig and Kaliningrad Konigsberg, actually.
Quote:
But it's more of a problem when I want to talk in English about the river on the Polish-German border or the mountains on the Polish-Czech border. In Polish, the river is Odra, the mountains - Sudety. In German, the river is Oder, the mountains Sudeten. I don't know about Czech, but probably something very similar to the Polish name. And then I want to mention the name in English, and sometimes I just mention both because I have no idea whether someone will know them by the Polish or by the German name.
So that's where "Sudentenland" comes from!

I recognize Oder mainly as the river flowing through Berlin.
Quote:
Actually, the name Wrocław should be pronounced as "vrots-wav".
That's probably the biggest problem with just transcribing letters. The German name Breslau comes much closer to the Polish pronunciation than what an English speaker reads when they see that name.
Quote:
About Szczecin... probably many have troubles pronouncing it, because they use the phonetic transcription in the city logo:



Although in English it should be simple - it will be something like "shchechin". The first "ch" not palatalized, the second one palatalized (English doesn't have this distinction, the English "ch" is something in between, usually more towards the not palatalized version).
The problem is that English speakers have a very hard time pronouncing that szcz cluster. The closest I can get to the Polish pronunciation is actually saying Stetson while very drunk.
Quote:
Poznań - should be simple ("poznan" with the second "n" palatalized), "Gdańsk" the same... Łódź - well, this one few foreigners can pronounce correctly, but it's because of the diacritics, they interpret it just as Lodz, which makes quite a difference in pronunciation ("lotz" vs. "wooch" with palatalized "ch"). When someone abroad asks me about my city, when I say Łódź, I must explain that he probably knows the city as Lodz.
Wootch actually sounds like an awesome city name IMO.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 01:50 AM   #36370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Rzeszów - this one may be difficult. It is "zheshoof" where "zh" is like "j" in French or "s" in words like pleasure, measure etc.
"ʒ"
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Old June 9th, 2017, 01:56 AM   #36371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
It would be pronounced the same, but "Cracow" looks super archaic. It communicates that the speaker still calls Gdansk Danzig and Kaliningrad Konigsberg, actually.
Interesting

But while Gdańsk or Kaliningrad used to be German/Prussian/Teutonic/whatever, Kraków has basically always been Polish (Austro-Hungarian in the 123 years when Poland didn't exist as a country, but as I have said, in German it's spelled Krakau). It's like Warsaw. And here, I don't think the English native speakers call it more commonly Warszawa than Warsaw...

Quote:
I recognize Oder mainly as the river flowing through Berlin.
Wrong Oder flows through Szczecin and Wrocław. The river through Berlin is Spree (which should be pronounced "shpre" and not "spri", by the way).

Quote:
The problem is that English speakers have a very hard time pronouncing that szcz cluster. The closest I can get to the Polish pronunciation is actually saying Stetson while very drunk.
I have already seen an authentic Australian trying to say "chrząszcz" /hshonshch/ (beetle). It didn't work, he always missed either sz or cz And ch was also not really audible.

Quote:
Wootch actually sounds like an awesome city name IMO.
Nice to hear it

It actually means a boat in Polish.

By the way... "Łódź" is /wootch/, but when you say "in Łódź", it will be "w Łodzi", to pronounce as /v wodchee/. ó (oo) changes into o (also in spelling), t changes into d (in spelling it was already d, but it was impossible to pronounce as d at the end of the word).

Actually, we have a few pairs of symbols (letters, digraphs) that reflect same sounds in modern times:
- ó vs. u (/oo/ in English)
- ch vs. h (already discussed it, let's say, /h/ is most similar or the same in English)
- rz vs. ż (sound without its own letter in English, mostly spelled as /s/, like in measure)
And some children in early years of primary school have hard time learning when to use which one.

But it's usually (not always) visible very well when you change the form of the word. Like "Łódź" -> "w Łodzi". And "u" wouldn't change into "o", it would stay "u". So having noun cases in your language helps learning the correct spelling too Similarly, for example, "morze" (see) - if you create an adjective from it, it's "morski" (maritime), "rz" changes into "r". But from "może" (maybe, or [he, she, it] may/can), the adjective is "możliwy" (possible), there is no change.

Last edited by Kpc21; June 9th, 2017 at 02:14 AM.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 02:27 AM   #36372
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probably the hardest for an anglophone are those "prz" words like "przepraszam"... I usually just ignore the "pr" entirely
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Old June 9th, 2017, 02:55 AM   #36373
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Call the place Stettin and problems are solved
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Old June 9th, 2017, 03:01 AM   #36374
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Pyongyang in Bulgarian is Пхенян (Pkhenyan). In general, Korean names have strange transliterations. Kim Il Sung is Kim Ir Sen, Kim Jong Il is Kim Chen Ir, Kim Jong Un is Kim Chen Un.

I think it's some Russian influence but it makes no sense.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 03:30 AM   #36375
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I think, in Polish, I hear the name Kim Ir Sen more often than Kim Il Sung. But Kim Jong Il definitely more often than Kim Chen Ir, as well as Kim Jong Un more often then Kim Chen Un.

Generally, the Polish transliteration of the North Korean names is a total mess.

As I wrote, until a few years ago, also in Polish the transliteration Phenian was used (it comes from Russian) - but while it works well in the Cyrylic alphabet, people seeing "ph" connection in the Latin alphabet always want to pronounce it as "f", because it works so in English and some other languages. Which is wrong in this case.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 04:56 AM   #36376
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I'm not even sure where the H comes from? The word doesn't show aspiration in Korean...

Korean definitely makes a voicing distinction on its affricates, too, which Cyrillic is not well-equipped to handle. It might be why you're seeing the substitution.

Korean R and L are actually the same phoneme, so that would be understandable if you're actually transliterating and not making Scheisse up as you go, Russia.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 12:00 PM   #36377
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The transliteration Kim Ir Sen comes from Russian (Ким Ир Сен). It was strongly recommended to use it this way in Eastern European countries before 1990.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 06:45 PM   #36378
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What's closer to [kim.il.s͈ʌŋ]? "Kim Il-sung" or "Kim Ir Sen"?
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Old June 9th, 2017, 09:19 PM   #36379
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I feel Kim Il-sung (or Il-sung Kim in Western name order) is closer to the pronounciation.
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Old June 9th, 2017, 10:29 PM   #36380
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What's closer to [kim.il.s͈ʌŋ]? "Kim Il-sung" or "Kim Ir Sen"?
It depends on the language

The -ng ending will never be close to it in any Slavic language. But in English - yes.
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