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Old November 2nd, 2017, 03:27 PM   #37401
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It is not an either/or situation. Yes, many people in countries like Italy or Spain just cannot find self-sustaining jobs at age 18-23 and, if they study, there is not some generous loan/grant system to support living alone. That is all true.

At the same time, in a context where many/most young adults live with parents, there is less of a peer/social effect pushing those who could live alone to move out as soon as they finish high school, especially if they don't have to (for university studies etc.)

I have quite a few friends/relatives from Brazil and from Italy. In both countries, middle and high-middle class youngsters do not have this general expectation of moving out ASAP. People who move out for studies will very often go back living with parents after graduation (or spend whole vacations at their parents' house). So even some of these friends/relatives who had their own stable-ish income often would prefer to keep living at their parents' house. Actually, for a young-ish (say, younger than 26-27) adult to move out of the parents' home to live alone in the same city as them - as I did myself -, some eyebrows will be raised, especially people thinking you'd only do it if you don't have a good relationship with your parents.

Meanwhile, things are not all rosy in Northern Europe for people moving out very young while working. Sometimes I feel as if there is a rush for very young couples (< 20) to move in together, at an age where I think modern adults in our Western societies are not really (nor should they be) fit for cohabitation. So breaking up a relationship at an age where break-ups are common comes with needing a new place to live. Here in Norway (and in the Netherlands as well) it is very common for BSc students just one or two years removed from high school to decide to live together with a partner.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 05:40 PM   #37402
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I have quite a few friends/relatives from Brazil and from Italy. In both countries, middle and high-middle class youngsters do not have this general expectation of moving out ASAP. People who move out for studies will very often go back living with parents after graduation (or spend whole vacations at their parents' house). So even some of these friends/relatives who had their own stable-ish income often would prefer to keep living at their parents' house. Actually, for a young-ish (say, younger than 26-27) adult to move out of the parents' home to live alone in the same city as them - as I did myself -, some eyebrows will be raised, especially people thinking you'd only do it if you don't have a good relationship with your parents.

Meanwhile, things are not all rosy in Northern Europe for people moving out very young while working. Sometimes I feel as if there is a rush for very young couples (< 20) to move in together, at an age where I think modern adults in our Western societies are not really (nor should they be) fit for cohabitation. So breaking up a relationship at an wage where break-ups are common comes with needing a new place to live. Here in Norway (and in the Netherlands as well) it is very common for BSc students just one or two years removed from high school to decide to live together with a partner.
It is about the culture. In the North, the young people begin to be independent quite early, and gradually. In cities, the youngsters use public transport without their parents from the early teenage latest. In the high-school phase, they are expected to manage their studies by themselves. After the school, at the age of 18-20, quite often they move into their own apartment (which, of course, is often at least partly financed by the parents). Leaving home absolutely is not a signal about bad relations to parents but about reaching a certain level of independence.

One aspect here is the money. Somewhere in the age of say 7-8, the kids begin to get a few euros a week for a pocket money. As the kids grow, the amount raises, but it covers more things, like the bus tickets. If you run out money because of spending everything in candies, you cannot afford riding a bus. The kids take small steps on the learning curve, without facing major risks. (Corrective actions with lessons are part of the learning curve.)

When my eldest kid was in the high school, I gave her a credit card valid in the local bookstore to buy everything she needed in the school. Everything went well, because she understood that a major violation would lead to an immediate loss of the card. The card was an important certificate for being worth of trust. She was 15 when she did not want to join our 2-week holiday trip to the Central Europe. For that period, she and me signed off a written agreement on the rules to stay at home alone. No major risk, because grandparents lived nearby ready to host the kid if needed. Almost everything went well (I forgot to write a statement about dish washing).

The option to live with a partner (and have kids) without other people raising the eyebrows, basically has increased the average age to marry. In Finland, the average age to marry the first time for women is 30 years, while 50 years ago it was 23. In the other Nordic countries, the average age is even higher.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 05:53 PM   #37403
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I am not implying it is wrong to live with someone else, just that 19 or 20 is probably not the best age to try to do so, because it is normal to have break-ups and maturity is not yet set in, and everything becomes more complicated when there is someone else sharing a house as partner.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 05:57 PM   #37404
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Very similar in the Netherlands.

I moved out when I was 19. I did not like living in a dormitory though. I got an apartment as soon as I could afford it.

I still live in a social housing complex. It's common in the Netherlands for people with a middle-class income to live in an apartment or single-family house that is part of the social housing scheme, because the gap between social housing rent and free market rent has become huge. You could pay twice as much per month for a similar house. Because they can't evict you based on income, there are many people earning € 25,000 - 40,000 per year and still live in a social housing scheme.

Social housing in the Netherlands is generally of good quality (especially those built after 1980). It's definitely not the French banlieue-style housing. I live in a 50 m² well-maintained apartment with two bedrooms, ample parking and in a quiet neighborhood.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 06:19 PM   #37405
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But why is it actually like that ? I mean why is it that people have/want to get more independent in the North generally ??

You are not necessarily more clever, smarter, richer and more intelligent just because you are independent? or are you ? What do you think ?.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 07:03 PM   #37406
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What do you mean as social housing? The cheap housing granted by the city/town/municipality when someone stays without home, so that he won't be homeless?

The problem in Poland is that there is a big shortage of it. The result is that sometimes if somebody rents an apartment to someone and he doesn't include some points in the contract that would protect him, throwing out a tenant who doesn't pay the rent or just due to a termination of the contract happens to be a big problem. If the person to whom you rent the apartment has no another home, you are not allowed to throw him out because you would make him homeless. Normally, he should get a social apartment from the city/town/municipality, but since there is a shortage of them... there is a problem.

Another thing are public-owned apartments, built (or, at least, owned) by city/town/municipality, but just rented as normal apartments for normal market prices.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 07:10 PM   #37407
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Social housing in the Netherlands is meant for lower incomes. This includes both the unemployed and families around the minimum wage. Most Dutch start out on social housing when they move away from home or a dormitory.

Students are generally not eligible for social housing in the Netherlands. They should live in shared student housing or stay at home with their parents.

Social housing rent in the Netherlands is generally considerably lower than the free market, the rent is generally indexed at 1-2% per year (sometimes more for higher incomes) and people earning less than a set amount of money are elegible for rent subsidies, this depends on income and household composition.

So on one side you have people with low incomes paying € 300 - 400 per month for social housing, people with higher incomes paying up to € 700 per month for social housing, but free market rental prices are generally over € 900 per month (over € 2000/month is even possible in Amsterdam).

As a result, a quite large proportion of Dutch live in social housing even if they make more money than the minimum wage.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 07:13 PM   #37408
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How old are people usually when they move out from home with their parents in different countries ? In Scandinavia its as young as 18 years. Here its seen very natural and a duty in life but in Southern Europe its regarded almost insane and raising eye brows. Why is it like that if we exclude family relations and economy.
It is true in this region I can say that it has to do with tradition and communist society. First of all in the past it was impossible for someone to move on its own because most of the property was state-owned and it was unimaginable for someone to go out of 'home'. Second it has to do with tradition in that time the generations were used to live with their parents until they got married.
The society didn't tolerated much those who are not married and live on their own so it was like that and if you are not married you cant get state-property or you stay with you parent until you get pension.
Today is different but due to tradition and economy there are only a few who decide to move on their own.

I officialy moved out on 28 although I was independent a year before.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 07:14 PM   #37409
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But why is it actually like that ? I mean why is it that people have/want to get more independent in the North generally ??

You are not necessarily more clever, smarter, richer and more intelligent just because you are independent? or are you ? What do you think ?.
I think living alone is good for personal development in certain aspects, although not a panacea that would solve all maturing issues.

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What do you mean as social housing? The cheap housing granted by the city/town/municipality when someone stays without home, so that he won't be homeless?

Another thing are public-owned apartments, built (or, at least, owned) by city/town/municipality, but just rented as normal apartments for normal market prices.
In the Netherlands, 2/3 of the residential rental stock (excluded owner-occupied properties) is classified as social housing. Social rental is defined as anything below € 710. These rental contracts follow different rules than "free market rents".

Social housing in the Netherlands is mostly built by hybrid non-profit entities that have access to some subsidized loans for construction and some tax exemptions. They are not (with very few exceptions) government entities though. Municipalities operate homeless shelters and some types of special housing, but most social housing is not like that.

Quality of social housing varies a lot, there are bad neighborhoods with social housing and other ones much better.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 07:23 PM   #37410
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But why is it actually like that ? I mean why is it that people have/want to get more independent in the North generally ??
Why not?
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 07:34 PM   #37411
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Why not?
I dont know.. Just reflecting.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 07:39 PM   #37412
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I moved out when I was 18, it was the best thing I ever did. I get on well with my parents but when I was in school I was kind of shy and looking back I didn't really have many friends. Going to university far away and living in shared flats and houses was a great decision and I really changed a lot. Of course, I was able to do this because of the way student finance works in the UK. When I was living in Corsica I decided to live alone in a tiny studio because I wanted a break from shared accommodation but it was a bit boring. Now I'm 22 and sharing a flat in Switzerland and it's pretty good. I have mostly been lucky with my flatmates, I have had 14 so far (in the UK most people move every year at university) and they've all been nice and mostly decent to live with.
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Old November 2nd, 2017, 11:38 PM   #37413
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Suburbanist, are you a scientist ? Matlab logo as profile pic
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 12:27 AM   #37414
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I dont know.. Just reflecting.
I believe the root cause of this tradition lies far away in the history. The Nordic thinking of equality shares the same roots.

The arctic areas are quite harsh to live, and every capable person has been required to get food and firewood as well as building suitable homes to survive the winter. In such an environment, youngsters must take responsibility early. Taking responsibility and willingness to be independent do correlate.

In the Viking era, most of the men in a village often left for their "commercial trips" which could last for years. Meanwhile, women carried the main responsibility for keeping the wheels running, farming, etc. Thus, the work of women has always been of high value.
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 01:51 AM   #37415
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I first moved out of parents home at age 24, to my own house which I had bought (I had been saving...)

I think looking back I would have had better social development to have moved out earlier, like when in university.
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 01:59 AM   #37416
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Now I'm 22 and sharing a flat in Switzerland and it's pretty good.
So, you registered at SSC at the age of 12?
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 02:11 AM   #37417
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That 'black box' device that records your driving style and gives you a discount on the car insurance is also becoming a thing in the Netherlands. It records acceleration, speed, G-forces, etc. So people drive like a granny and annoy other drivers to save a few euros....
Never heard of it. Good thing I don't have it, I wouldn't benefit from it.
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 02:23 AM   #37418
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So, you registered at SSC at the age of 12?
I registered at the age of 14.
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 03:29 AM   #37419
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Social housing in the Netherlands is meant for lower incomes. This includes both the unemployed and families around the minimum wage. Most Dutch start out on social housing when they move away from home or a dormitory.

Students are generally not eligible for social housing in the Netherlands. They should live in shared student housing or stay at home with their parents.

Social housing rent in the Netherlands is generally considerably lower than the free market, the rent is generally indexed at 1-2% per year (sometimes more for higher incomes) and people earning less than a set amount of money are elegible for rent subsidies, this depends on income and household composition.

So on one side you have people with low incomes paying € 300 - 400 per month for social housing, people with higher incomes paying up to € 700 per month for social housing, but free market rental prices are generally over € 900 per month (over € 2000/month is even possible in Amsterdam).

As a result, a quite large proportion of Dutch live in social housing even if they make more money than the minimum wage.
Jikes, I never knew this. Here in Belgium once you go above minimum wage there is no way you would ever get social housing. I make €38.000/year, my girlfriend €43.000/year and we rent a 110sqm two room appartment 1km from the town's main square. It costs us 790/month.
Honestly, Dutch rents are crazy AF.


Tow differend worlds just a border apart.
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 10:42 AM   #37420
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There are social differences, correct.
On the other side, just like some of you have already written: financial difficulties, especially by housing.
And there is even a controversy here: in Hungary is real estate significantly cheaper than in Germany or in the Netherlands. It means: a vast majority of population can afford an own house or an own flat in Budapest and other major towns. So there are only a few flats to rent.
If you're twenty and have no or low incomes, you have no chance to buy a flat and you have only a littl chance to rent one. So cheap real estate means: no chance for poor and not even for lower middle class people. And because of the lack of flats to rent, rents are pretty high in Budapest.
So if your parents are not rich enough to buy you a flat, you simply can't move away, even if you would like to.
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