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Old November 26th, 2017, 01:14 PM   #37541
Kpc21
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So it seems that we have very similar problems in Poland. I am not sure about the EU financing, I don't think we are getting any money specially dedicated for the cycling infrastructure.

Concerning the cycling paths, you are partially right. But there are two issues here.

First. Without a cycling path, many city cyclists are afraid of riding on the roadway and they resort to using the sidewalks. Which is, by the way, illegal in Poland and you can be fined for that (although in my opinion, it should be legal on condition that you respect the pedestrians, give way to them, walk the bike through the more crowded places and give way to cars on the zebra crossings). For them, separated cycling paths are a good solution.

Second. Cycling on a roadway of a busy city highway may be simply dangerous. And the reasonable cyclists will never use them for cycling. Unless... they have no choice, because taking another route would lengthen the distance very much (which can be the case e.g. in case of the bridges or railway overpasses). Separated cycling paths make sense there.

Still, a separated cycling path spanning 10 or 20 km between two towns along a busy road (such cycling paths appear in Poland too) is a mistake. One thing is that cycling tourists don't really need comfortable asphalt cycling paths, another thing is that they would anyway choose side roads through villages, with a little amount of car traffic, where you don't have to breathe with combustion fumes.

And when the quality of the cycling path is such that it changes the side of the road every few hundred meters, suddenly disappears and later reappears, is not made of asphalt or concrete but of concrete bricks, often with chamfered edges, cycling on which is uncomfortable - many cyclists will just avoid using it and choose either the roadway, or the sidewalk for cycling.

What is sometimes seen in Polish cities is building cycling paths along narrow streets in the city center, where even if the traffic is high, first, it should be limited, second, there are usually traffic jams and no high speeds. This is also bad.

There is also another problem. In Poland, with the recent growth of popularity of cycling in the cities a kind of conflict between the car drivers and the cyclists emerged. On one hand, there are car drivers, who treat the cyclists as an obstacle on the roadway, which they think should be only for them, and cyclist should cycle on sidewalks, or, I don't know, not cycle at all. They don't care about the cyclists on the cycle path crossings and overpass them without keeping a safe distance between the car and the bike. On the other hand, there is one category of cyclists, who usually ride sports bikes, wear tight cycling outfits and helmets and practically always use roadways, even if there is a cycling path of a reasonable quality. They tend to blame drivers for everything, ride as if there were only them on the road and nobody else, ignore all the traffic laws, and they use the law quality of the cycling infrastructure as an excuse. Of course, those are only small groups of drivers and cyclists. But when it reaches the level of politics, you have tensions and many try to generalize it to all the cyclists and all the drivers, which is, of course, not true.
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Old November 26th, 2017, 01:48 PM   #37542
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Oh I could tell you stories about the arrogant cyclists. A lot of them lacks education too. But still, at least, they are less dangerous in terms of accident (indeed, they could be severe, but generally they are not that dangerous than cars) and they are good for environment. Therefore conditions must be made to foster the cycling transport. Especially in urban areas.

And of course tangential roads should remain cyclingless.
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Old November 26th, 2017, 01:58 PM   #37543
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Those tangential to what?

The arrogant cyclists are the minority and their problem should be cured with police fines.

They are one of the arguments pointed out why not to make cycling on sidewalks legal in all cases. That they would be a danger for the pedestrians. But most cyclists are not like that. And if someone feels more comfortable cycling on the sidewalk instead of the roadway, it shouldn't be forbidden. The law should simply protect the pedestrians in such cases.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 03:11 AM   #37544
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I really question the utility and value of cycling lanes in city streets. I mean, if traffic flow is less than, say, 70 km/h, what's the benefit to the cyclist compared to just running the right side of the road? Unless the road itself is already congested...
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Old November 27th, 2017, 03:20 AM   #37545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I really question the utility and value of cycling lanes in city streets. I mean, if traffic flow is less than, say, 70 km/h, what's the benefit to the cyclist compared to just running the right side of the road? Unless the road itself is already congested...
It is much safer to ride at separate bike paths, physically segregated from traffic lanes. Look at how Netherlands and Denmark do It...
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Old November 27th, 2017, 10:06 AM   #37546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
The arrogant cyclists are the minority and their problem should be cured with police fines.
It is sad to see how a 90% minority spoils the reputation of the whole gang.
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Old November 27th, 2017, 05:14 PM   #37547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanadzie View Post
I really question the utility and value of cycling lanes in city streets. I mean, if traffic flow is less than, say, 70 km/h, what's the benefit to the cyclist compared to just running the right side of the road? Unless the road itself is already congested...

I guess you don't ride a bike?

Cars almost never keep a safe distance (should be at least >1m) when overtaking. 70km/h makes for a really huge speed difference and potential for accidents when they try to sneak by 20cm next to you...
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Old November 27th, 2017, 05:20 PM   #37548
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"International SOS" and "Control Risks" created a map of various type of risks around the world. Here a map of road risk (colors are pretty self-explanatory):

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Old November 29th, 2017, 01:04 PM   #37549
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Meanwhile in Oymyakon, Russia:

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Old November 29th, 2017, 01:51 PM   #37550
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In Poland, a road intersection cancels the speed limit. But from what I know, it is not so in most western European countries. So... does it mean that when you turn into another road on an intersection, you must guess what the speed limit is on this road?

I guess the speed limit sign would be repeated in such a situation anyway. But let's say it isn't - someone forgot to place it there, someone stole it, whatever. What then? How can you know what the current speed limit is?
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Old November 29th, 2017, 01:55 PM   #37551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
In Poland, a road intersection cancels the speed limit. But from what I know, it is not so in most western European countries. So... does it mean that when you turn into another road on an intersection, you must guess what the speed limit is on this road?

I guess the speed limit sign would be repeated in such a situation anyway. But let's say it isn't - someone forgot to place it there, someone stole it, whatever. What then? How can you know what the current speed limit is?
In Italy it's the same, but I guess that if the sign is not repeated after an intersection, you assume the limit is the generic one for that kind of road. In Italy there are only 4 generic limits: motorways (130), expressways (110), roads out of towns (90), roads inside towns (50). So if you merge on a motorway and there is no sign, you know you can do 130.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 01:56 PM   #37552
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The Netherlands has general speed limits for all road types. So all urban roads are 50 km/h unless otherwise posted. So if you drive on an urban road with a 70 km/h limit and there is no sign after the next intersection, it will be 50 km/h again. In practice it is usually signed as a reminder.

Then you have zones. These can be large areas, entire subdivisions can be in a zone 30 or rural areas in a zone 60, these speed limits are only signed when you enter or exit a zone. So if you are in a zone 60, it remains 60 after intersections even if the general non-urban speed limit is 80 km/h.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 02:46 PM   #37553
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Yes, the thing with general speed limits for specific types of roads and with zones is quite obvious for me, as it is valid in Poland too, as probably in all the countries applying the signage based on the Vienna convention

What bothers me is the "otherwise posted" situation.

There is an urban road, normally 50 km/h, with speed limited to 40 km/h by means of a sign.

I approach this road on a T-like junction (that road is the "roof" of T, I am driving along its vertical line). And it occurs that the 40 km/h is not repeated behind the intersection... but, supposedly, this speed limit is anyway valid there since the intersection doesn't cancel it.

I have drawn the situation:



Does the blue car have to guess that he is allowed to drive not faster than 40 km/h?

In Poland, the intersection cancels the speed limit, or rather resets it to the default one for the given type of road. The only situation when the situation may be unclear for the driver is when he exits a road which is not paved, because an intersection with a road which is not paved is not an intersection.

How do you deal with such situations in the west?

I am not sure how it is in the Netherlands, maybe you have the same rules as we in Poland that an intersection resets the speed limit. But I have read many times that in Germany it isn't so and that the speed limit must be explicitly cancelled by the "end of speed limit" sign.

Last edited by Kpc21; November 29th, 2017 at 02:56 PM.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 02:50 PM   #37554
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Quote:
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So if you drive on an urban road with a 70 km/h limit and there is no sign after the next intersection, it will be 50 km/h again.
In Germany and Austria, on the contrary, 70 is valid even after the intersection.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 03:47 PM   #37555
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In Germany and Austria, on the contrary, 70 is valid even after the intersection.
And how are you supposed to know that, if you are coming from an intersection?
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Old November 29th, 2017, 08:20 PM   #37556
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And how are you supposed to know that, if you are coming from an intersection?
No idea.
As a matter of fact, in very many cases is either the speed limit sign repeated or a cancelling sign installed just after the intersection. But here where I live, too, are speed limits which theoretically are valid in a certain road but motorists who come from the crossing road may have no idea about them.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 08:32 PM   #37557
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This is well described in the Vienna convention on road signs and signals:

Quote:
Prohibitory and restrictive signs shall apply as
from the place they are displayed until the
point where a contrary sign is displayed, otherwise
until the next intersection
. If the prohibition or
restriction should continue to be applied after the
intersection the sign shall be repeated in
accordance with provisions in domestic legislation.
In Slovakia, this work as noted above. But the recent trends are stupid. Police now post the contrary signs (especially the ones cancelling the prohibition) just before the intersection (it is pure duplication). It makes more and more drivers feel like when the contrary sign is not posted, the intersection does not cancels the prohibition. This is wrong.

Plus a recent amendment of the pertinent law changed the provision in way that the signs are cancelled at the end of the intersection, not the start.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 10:11 PM   #37558
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And how is it with no parking signs on the left?

In Poland it is so, that the signs forbidding parking (and, more often, stopping) are valid only on the side of the road, on which they are placed. So - if there is no stopping sign on the right, it holds on the right only, if it is on the left, it holds on the left only.

But I got to know yesterday that if there is no no stopping sign on your left (placed so that you have to drive next to it first), but there is one placed further on, for someone who would drive from the opposite direction, on his right and your left, then it is also valid for you even though you have no chance of seeing it (if you are lucky and the sign isn't far away, you can see the grey rear side of it and try to guess whether it's a no stopping sign, or a different one).

In some countries I have seen no stopping sign placed just in parallel with the road, so that they can be seen regardless of the direction in which someone drives.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 10:54 PM   #37559
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In New Zealand for example it is forbidden to park the car on the other side of the road (on the right, as they drive on the left), exceptbin one way streets where the signs indicate that you should do so. This means that every driver has to find a parking spot in their directon of travel, and not cross on the other side of the road if a spot is free over there.
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Old November 29th, 2017, 11:11 PM   #37560
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Quote:
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In New Zealand for example it is forbidden to park the car on the other side of the road (on the right, as they drive on the left), exceptbin one way streets where the signs indicate that you should do so. This means that every driver has to find a parking spot in their directon of travel, and not cross on the other side of the road if a spot is free over there.
Same here though I have never seen police enforcing it
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