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Old November 29th, 2017, 11:51 PM   #37561
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
In New Zealand for example it is forbidden to park the car on the other side of the road (on the right, as they drive on the left), exceptbin one way streets where the signs indicate that you should do so. This means that every driver has to find a parking spot in their directon of travel, and not cross on the other side of the road if a spot is free over there.
It's the same in Italy, a friend of mine got a fine because of that. However it's not a big deal, if you find a free spot on the other side you simply make an U-turn.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 12:18 AM   #37562
MattiG
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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
This is well described in the Vienna convention on road signs and signals:
How would you decode this cryptography into Plain English: 'sign shall be repeated in accordance with provisions in domestic legislation'?

- The domestic legislation must enforce the repetition?
- The domestic legislation may ignore this statement?
- Something else?

(I am not very good in Lawyerspeak.)
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Old November 30th, 2017, 02:21 AM   #37563
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In Poland it's forbidden on streets with heavy traffic, which is usually interpreted as that there is a continuous flow of cars. And the idea is that parking on the left or starting driving from this parking spot could interrupt this traffic flow quite much. But on the streets with not a lot of traffic, it's perfectly legal to park on the left.

On one-way streets on the left, of course, too.

Unless specifically signposted, but, as I wrote, parking ban on the left on a two-way street doesn't have to be signposted from the perspective of someone who would park on the left. It sometimes is, but it doesn't have to.

And the "no parking" and "no stopping" signs are valid also on the sidewalks, which was different before, and it was changed somehow in the late 1990s/early 2000s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
How would you decode this cryptography into Plain English: 'sign shall be repeated in accordance with provisions in domestic legislation'?
By the way... isn't the literal meaning of "shall" basically the same as "will", and isn't it so that in not such a distant past, in some grammatical persons, "shall" was the only correct word and in some persons, only "will" was correct (like "I will do it" but "He shall do it", or vice versa, I don't remember)? The English teacher explained to us such a thing once, if I remember well, but it was so long ago that I am not sure. Now, of course, "shall" is rarely used (except for making proposals, and in rules of law), and "will" is used frequently in all persons.

But then, how can this "shall" used in many rules of law mean obligation, while it's the same as "will", and "will" means more or less that someone has a will to do something, decided to do it, or even promised to do it, but not in any way (unless specifically pointed out) that he is obliged to do it?

Last edited by Kpc21; November 30th, 2017 at 02:32 AM.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 03:30 AM   #37564
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Same here though I have never seen police enforcing it
In my old city, was illegal, and very rare to see. Once I saw a car parked the "wrong" way, and, on the windshield, ticket.
But where I live now, also illegal, but everyone does it. It is almost like 40% of cars parked the "wrong" way
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:23 AM   #37565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
How would you decode this cryptography into Plain English: 'sign shall be repeated in accordance with provisions in domestic legislation'?

- The domestic legislation must enforce the repetition?
- The domestic legislation may ignore this statement?
- Something else?

(I am not very good in Lawyerspeak.)
Sorry, I am not a lawyer. Never wanted to be. But maybe it concerns the thing I mentioned. Previously the sign (except a zonal sign) was cancelled at the start of the intersection (e.g. if there was a local speed limit reduced to 70 kph, driver was allowed to pass the intersection at generic speed limit for example 90 kph) in my country. After the general highway code amendment in 2009, a sign is now canceled after an intersection so that is still valid while passing an intersection.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 09:52 AM   #37566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Sorry, I am not a lawyer. Never wanted to be. But maybe it concerns the thing I mentioned. Previously the sign (except a zonal sign) was cancelled at the start of the intersection (e.g. if there was a local speed limit reduced to 70 kph, driver was allowed to pass the intersection at generic speed limit for example 90 kph) in my country. After the general highway code amendment in 2009, a sign is now canceled after an intersection so that is still valid while passing an intersection.
The Finnish road code tells us that the speed limit continues on "the same road" until another speed limit is introduced. Thus, an intersection does not cancel it. I am wondering whether this is in conflict with the VC text or not. I wonder because Finland tends to implement all kind of EU directives and other international conventions pretty literally (except those related to car or alcohol taxes).

I tried to find some hints it that article of the VC were updated since the amendments of 2003, but I found nothing. Instead, I read the presentations of the UNECE Expert Group for Road Signs and Signals. Some of those are pretty interesting:

http://www.unece.org/trans/roadsafe/...ignals_13.html

Last edited by MattiG; November 30th, 2017 at 12:56 PM.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 09:59 AM   #37567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
How would you decode this cryptography into Plain English: 'sign shall be repeated in accordance with provisions in domestic legislation'?

- The domestic legislation must enforce the repetition?
- The domestic legislation may ignore this statement?
- Something else?

(I am not very good in Lawyerspeak.)
My interpretation:

The convention says that the sign must be repeated, but how it's repeated will depend on provisions on signing in the domestic legislation and is not specified by the convention, such as how long after the intersection and whether it will have to be repeated before in addition to after the intersection.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 02:53 PM   #37568
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According to the article: http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/motof...lsce,12727666/ - the EU wants us (Poland) to limit the speed limit in built-up areas at night from 60 km/h to 50 km/h and on motorways from 140 km/h to 120 km/h.

While I agree concerning the built-up areas (driving at night is more dangerous, it's more difficult to see a pedestrian), I don't understand the thing with the motorways. An accident at the speed of 140 km/h won't be more deadly than one at 120 km/h, both will probably end up in the same tragic way. And while we have one of the highest speed limits on motorways, most of the EU has 130 km/h, which is still more than 120 km/h and we have Germans, who have no general limit on motorways at all. While this is acceptable (so if you are a skilled driver and have a good car, and there is no specifically signposted speed limit, you can drive 200 km/h fully legally), why our 140 km/h shouldn't be?
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Old December 1st, 2017, 03:06 PM   #37569
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I believe that this thing with motorway speeds is a bullshit. There are no serious tendencies in EU to make an uniform speed limit for motorway speeds and it is possible that it is just a newspaper fake-news. But in Poland there is really strange law that speed limit in built-up areas is higher in the night. That really doesn't help to more safety.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 03:29 PM   #37570
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I agree with keber, this smells like fake news.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 04:24 PM   #37571
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Don't underestimate the number of 'working groups' that publish stuff in the name of the EU or EC. A headline like 'the EU wants this' is often only the opinion of some working group and may not become official policy.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 04:40 PM   #37572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I agree with keber, this smells like fake news.
True. EU has not shown interest in regulating the traffic rules. I believe this is mainly because the UNECE works as the standardization body at the same playground, but with a wider scope.

If I recall, some similar case has been discussed early. In that case, too, the fake information was spreading in Poland. Perhaps the Polish have a need to refer to some Higher Power (or the Flying Dutchman) in their internal politics.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 04:51 PM   #37573
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So, reading the article, those are recommendations (only recommendations, nothing more) from the European Transport Safety Council. But it's in the content. The title and the introduction say different things. It's not fake news, it's just manipulation.

But such articles in the media result later in comments and opinions among the public: "remove the EU!", "those ... want to regulate everything here, we are no longer an independent country!", "nobody will be telling us that bulls... that a snail is a fish!", "they regulate everything including the banana curvature!".

Last edited by Kpc21; December 1st, 2017 at 05:03 PM.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 05:00 PM   #37574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogdymol View Post
In New Zealand for example it is forbidden to park the car on the other side of the road (on the right, as they drive on the left), exceptbin one way streets where the signs indicate that you should do so. This means that every driver has to find a parking spot in their directon of travel, and not cross on the other side of the road if a spot is free over there.
In Germany, too, is it forbidden, parking on the opposite side. I were once, approx. twenty years ago, warned by police (my car back then was registered in Hungary). The policeman told me had fined me if I were German.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 05:06 PM   #37575
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Don't underestimate the number of 'working groups' that publish stuff in the name of the EU or EC. A headline like 'the EU wants this' is often only the opinion of some working group and may not become official policy.
True.
On the other side some governments (especially, but not exclusively, Poland and Hungary) like to interpret those working group ideas as "that evil EU want to restrict our national self-determination again, in such a silly way".
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Old December 1st, 2017, 05:06 PM   #37576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Don't underestimate the number of 'working groups' that publish stuff in the name of the EU or EC. A headline like 'the EU wants this' is often only the opinion of some working group and may not become official policy.
That's exactly the point, working groups shouldn't publish stuff for EU. They should work on an idea and, when and if approved, they can release it.
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Old December 1st, 2017, 05:31 PM   #37577
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
True.
On the other side some governments (especially, but not exclusively, Poland and Hungary) like to interpret those working group ideas as "that evil EU want to restrict our national self-determination again, in such a silly way".
It's more about the media.

Although... that article was published on a local portal owned by a German publishing house
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 12:17 AM   #37578
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After the latest Google Maps update, the motorways and the main roads look almost identical. Look at Milano area for example:

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Old December 2nd, 2017, 02:34 AM   #37579
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It depends on the zoom level. If you unzoom, there is a big difference between motorways and normal roads.
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Old December 2nd, 2017, 02:38 AM   #37580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
According to the article: http://www.gazetawroclawska.pl/motof...lsce,12727666/ - the EU wants us (Poland) to limit the speed limit in built-up areas at night from 60 km/h to 50 km/h and on motorways from 140 km/h to 120 km/h.

While I agree concerning the built-up areas (driving at night is more dangerous, it's more difficult to see a pedestrian), I don't understand the thing with the motorways. An accident at the speed of 140 km/h won't be more deadly than one at 120 km/h, both will probably end up in the same tragic way. And while we have one of the highest speed limits on motorways, most of the EU has 130 km/h, which is still more than 120 km/h and we have Germans, who have no general limit on motorways at all. While this is acceptable (so if you are a skilled driver and have a good car, and there is no specifically signposted speed limit, you can drive 200 km/h fully legally), why our 140 km/h shouldn't be?
I really like the Polish "60 at night" law. Pedestrians are rare at such times and relatively distinctive, and traffic is normally running at this speed or more (e.g. 70...). The law should at least recognize reasonable driving by reasonable people (I mean, it's 60 km/h...)
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