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Old December 6th, 2017, 11:57 PM   #37601
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Send some rain to Spain, we are suffering the worst drought in the last few years (I don't recall how many).
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Old December 7th, 2017, 02:07 PM   #37602
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Poland. There was only one day with real snow until now, and this snow last barely 2 days.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 02:30 PM   #37603
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Norwegian keyboard layout are strange, no idea why they place the special characters so out of place compared to US standard 101 keyboard. I get the reasoning for cramming more special letters but not rearranging all the symbols.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 05:50 PM   #37604
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Quote:
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It has been raining far above average here for more than 1 year. The final annual precipitation for 2017 is likely to be 3400mm
Isn't the average rainfall in Bergen well known to be very high?
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Old December 7th, 2017, 05:56 PM   #37605
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Isn't the average rainfall in Bergen well known to be very high?
Yes, but annual averages in the low parts of the city are 2400mm/year. Which is more than 3x the annual precipitation of London or Amsterdam.

3400mm is really a lot.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 06:01 PM   #37606
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Yes, but annual averages in the low parts of the city are 2400mm/year. Which is more than 3x the annual precipitation of London or Amsterdam.

3400mm is really a lot.
Sounds it!
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Old December 7th, 2017, 06:10 PM   #37607
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The coastal region of western Norway sometimes has several consecutive days of 100 mm of rainfall. It can add up pretty quickly.

Voss is only 70 kilometers inland but receives only half of the rainfall that Bergen gets.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 06:51 PM   #37608
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Voss is in a rain shadow but there are many areas in the plateaus that get 5000mm/year. Rainfall in Bergen is subject to very local orography as well, some narrow valleys get almost 4500mm/year and have the characteristics of rainforests with some trees and moss and other stuff not seen in woods in other parts of the Bergen municipality.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 06:53 PM   #37609
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there is one mass advantage of all this rain: water filtrates through the rocks and it is of very high quality. They extract water through horizontal tunnels dug deep into the mountains and the hundreds of meters of rock are a natural filtration system.
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Old December 8th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #37610
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Norwegian keyboard layout are strange, no idea why they place the special characters so out of place compared to US standard 101 keyboard. I get the reasoning for cramming more special letters but not rearranging all the symbols.
I am happy that in Poland we use just the standard US-American QWERTY layout without any keys for special characters or swapped ones like A with Q or Y with Z.

Polish-specific characters are typed by pressing the right Alt key simultaneously with the specific letter, e.g. Alt+S = Ś.

And it doesn't seem to slow down the typing process.

In the typewriters it was different, we were using an adaptation of the German QWERTZ layout (supposedly because many typewriters used to be imported from Germany, and it was simpler to physically exchange the fonts /real, metal fonts/ for German umlauts to Polish characters rather then to exchange the whole machinery inside). And, by the way, it installs itself by default with the Polish version of Windows, apart from the normally used QWERTY layout, and then you have people who press Ctrl+Shift by accident (which is the default keyboard shortcut in Windows for changing the keyboard layout) and then they don't know what to do when they can't type properly
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Old December 9th, 2017, 01:14 AM   #37611
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Old December 9th, 2017, 03:16 PM   #37612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
I am happy that in Poland we use just the standard US-American QWERTY layout without any keys for special characters or swapped ones like A with Q or Y with Z.

Polish-specific characters are typed by pressing the right Alt key simultaneously with the specific letter, e.g. Alt+S = Ś.

And it doesn't seem to slow down the typing process.

In the typewriters it was different, we were using an adaptation of the German QWERTZ layout (supposedly because many typewriters used to be imported from Germany, and it was simpler to physically exchange the fonts /real, metal fonts/ for German umlauts to Polish characters rather then to exchange the whole machinery inside). And, by the way, it installs itself by default with the Polish version of Windows, apart from the normally used QWERTY layout, and then you have people who press Ctrl+Shift by accident (which is the default keyboard shortcut in Windows for changing the keyboard layout) and then they don't know what to do when they can't type properly
it is easy for you who use Y regularly in your languages to speak in that way. languages which don't use it really don't have sense to have Y in the middle of the keyboard.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 03:30 PM   #37613
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it is easy for you who use Y regularly in your languages to speak in that way. languages which don't use it really don't have sense to have Y in the middle of the keyboard.
Slovakia has switched to QWERTZ system, just because of this, though i consider it crap. Fortunately electronic devices recognize two types of keyboard so I can use the QWERTY one.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 06:04 PM   #37614
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it is easy for you who use Y regularly in your languages to speak in that way. languages which don't use it really don't have sense to have Y in the middle of the keyboard.
Polish doesn't use V, X and Q, but we never thought about removing them from keyboards or shifting them into weird places

It's still very useful while typing foreign words or trade names.
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Old December 10th, 2017, 12:43 PM   #37615
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Old December 10th, 2017, 10:35 PM   #37616
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Old December 11th, 2017, 12:19 AM   #37617
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Quote:
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Polish doesn't use V, X and Q, but we never thought about removing them from keyboards or shifting them into weird places

It's still very useful while typing foreign words or trade names.
Z-Y shifting is not weird. it is weird just as standard Q or X position.
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Old December 11th, 2017, 12:30 AM   #37618
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Quote:
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Norwegian keyboard layout are strange, no idea why they place the special characters so out of place compared to US standard 101 keyboard. I get the reasoning for cramming more special letters but not rearranging all the symbols.
It is not less or more strange than the US 101, it simply is different. Selecting US 101 as a baseline is a miserable failure, because it is useless for virtually all European languages except English.

The history talks: The layouts are based the 88-position IBM Selectric typewriter. The insufficient number of positions led to language-specific customizations, which were later inherited by the computer keyboards.

Another factor is the 7-bit ASCII code lacking positions for national characters. The six national character in the Scandinavian languages and Finnish were mapped onto the code positions of "less important" brackets []{}, backslash and vertical bar. Those ones have made their comeback but on secondary positions, for obvious reasons.

Last edited by MattiG; December 11th, 2017 at 12:36 AM. Reason: Irregular verbs, tana
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Old December 11th, 2017, 01:35 AM   #37619
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In general, all the commonly used keyboard layouts (at least those known to me, maybe for some alphabets it's different) were designed to make the keys for the characters that often appear one after another in the words of a language the layout was designed for as distant from each other as possible.

It had very much sense in the mechanical typewriters, it was related to their construction - pressing to neighboring keys quickly one after another could cause jamming of the fonts (as fonts, I mean patterns of the letters cast in metal, which would press the paper through the ink tape to create the typed text).

For me, as a computer user, it really makes no difference how far away from each other the keys will be placed. The crucial thing is that I have the layout memorized and I can type mechanically without thinking. For me, this is the QWERTY layout. When it happened that I was forced to use the QWERTZ layout for a moment, it resulted with the latter Y in my texts replaced by Z and vice versa, and big troubles with typing many special characters, which I had to look for with my eyes around the whole keyboard. Whenever it is possible, when I am using a computer with a different keyboard layout set, I just switch it to the one I am used to. Then I can type without any problem even though the characters seen on the keys are different from those which I type using them.

Supposedly, it is more optimal for the typing process if the characters often repeating in words are close to each other in the keyboard. And they are some keyboard layouts designed with this thought in mind, for example the Dvorak keyboard layout. But... who uses Dvorak? Let's say you start using it. Then it will take very much time to you before you get so trained in it that it will make you type (minimally) faster than with the layout you are currently using. Until then, the typing will be much, much slower and very annoying.

So... I agree. QWERTY (the American/Polish layout) is exactly the same weird for some of you as the layouts you are using (QWERTZ, AZERTY and others) are for me.

By the way... Talking about this story about fonts jamming, I am not really sure this was the case in case of the QWERTZ layout. Because this layout comes from Germany, and TZ is quite a common combination of letters in German words...

I can't really see any reason why put the language-specific characters in the place of some other existing characters like {, }, [, ] in the code page instead of using the places kind of intended for that, to which you shifted those special characters (by the way, that was probably no longer ASCII, because it's a 7-bit code where there is the } sign on one of the last positions... you probably mean the extensions of ASCII, in which the 8th bit was added, which allowed using twice as much characters in general - and which existed and still exist in many different variations for different languages, the problem of which is now being solved by Unicode, although you still find those 8-bit code pages used in many places)... This is anyway processed by the computer, you don't have to think about it. Unless you are writing directly in the machine code, but I believe even in the early years of computers, people wrote programs in a kind of assembly language (on paper, of course) and then manually translated it to machine code. Someone doing those translations (or maybe already the one writing the program and probably putting the values in hexadecimal, so that it would be easily convertible to binary) would have the codes for the language-specific characters in mind anyway... And another thing is I don't think anyone bothered about using language-specific characters in computers in those times, when they were used only for scientific and industrial computation and it wasn't really important if the words in the print-out would contain the language-specific characters, or their bare Latin/English equivalents (another thing is how long "bytes" were they using, with 7 bits and ASCII you must indeed sacrifice some characters like brackets to include national characters). The first character encoding for the Polish language, for example, which is, at least, known to me (called Mazovia), was created in the mid-1980s, for a Polish microcomputer being an IBM PC clone.

And, by the way, it was designed in quite a smart way, so that the Polish letters appeared in the places of characters from the original IBM PC encoding that looked more or less similarly, e.g. Ł was in the place of the pound symbol (which looks practically identically in handwriting).

Last edited by Kpc21; December 11th, 2017 at 01:59 AM.
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Old December 11th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #37620
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Quote:
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In general, all the commonly used keyboard layouts (at least those known to me, maybe for some alphabets it's different) were designed to make the keys for the characters that often appear one after another in the words of a language the layout was designed for as distant from each other as possible.
The question was more about the non-letter character positions than whether the system is QWERTY, AZERTY, QWERTZ or something else.

In the real world, many things are based on the history, not on the current capabilities. The keyboards are derived from IBM Selectric which was derived from Remington 1.

The same applies to a car, for instance. Its user interface is just ridiculous: A single joystick would be enough for driving. However, replacing the steering wheel, pedals and the gear stick with a joystick would ruin the compatibility.
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