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Old December 25th, 2017, 10:23 PM   #37801
volodaaaa
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But he is still strongly refering to Christian heritage, which is, after all, the only right option for historical European identity. (Let's not forget that major part of European culture that we know today went out of Christian heritage)
I think it implies european roots. The roots as opposite to current libertarians' agenda all aroud europe.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:53 AM   #37802
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But he is still strongly refering to Christian heritage, which is, after all, the only right option for historical European identity. (Let's not forget that major part of European culture that we know today went out of Christian heritage)
Correct. But for him Christianity is a culture, not a religion. You can be a good christian, even if you don't believe in God.
And exactly that's what I talk about: people in Hungary, just like in many other nations in Europe, get far from christian religion, but maintain christian culture.
I personally know Hungarian people who say, they are christian, but at the same time they don't believe in any god. The very base of christian religion is believing in God...

However, in Hungary, christianity means primarily not to be muslim. It's quite a traditional way of use. In the 30's saying "I'm christian" ment "I am not jew". So you could be christian and an atheist at the same time. Nowadays it's the same but with muslims.


That's why I wrote "christian religion" in my post two days ago, and not simply "christianity".
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Old December 26th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #37803
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Nowadays it's the same but with muslims.
I don't understand this. How is this even possible? To be Christian because of the Muslims (but not believing in God). It is politics and Hungary is the European champion.
Hungary is opposing the Islam on a large scale, but the fact is Europe is Muslim in many ways. Since the colonial ages and legal migration that happens. Also do you know that in Europe you have at least 3 Muslim countries where the Islam is prevalent?
Muslims are prevalent in Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia, these are continental European countries.
Also you have big percentage in countries such as Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro and even France and Sweden.

Don't even mentioning that in Hungary there are many mosques since it was conquered by the Ottomans, but still escaped the big rule as in the Balkans where some countries like the Albanians changed their religion and accepted the Islam, same with the Bosnian Muslims, but the Orthodoxes in my country saved their religion.
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The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
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Old December 26th, 2017, 02:44 PM   #37804
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People are simply afraid that with an inflow of (more) Muslims, the traditions and the culture will have to change to respect the Muslims. However stupid it may sound, people are afraid that the number of Muslims in Europe (we are talking about the countries where the Christianity is dominant now, not about Albania and Bosnia) will grow so much that they will force on the Christians adjusting to their traditions, their customs, their ways of living. Which (theoretically) can even end-up with the Koran-based law.

And especially the atheism is perceived as a danger for those people, as it leaves empty "religious space" that can be filled by the islam.

If people in Poland hear that e.g. a monument of John Paul II somewhere in France has to be removed, because it contains a cross, and in France the religious symbols in public places are forbidden - they automatically start thinking it's because of the Muslims, even though it's actually a rule, if I am not mistaken, dating back to and originated from the French revolution. Or when they hear that somewhere in France, a Christmas tree had to be removed due to Muslims - forgetting about that it was in a closed room somewhere in a city hall and it was because the room was rented to a group of Muslims for a kind of meeting, possibly a religion-related one.

But people generally think that when Muslims come to Europe, to countries with Christian traditions, they should respect them instead of forcing their own customs and traditions on Europeans. And don't they actually respect them? I think they do. But explain it to the people who see or read about events as those above in the media.

This is also one of the reasons why e.g. inviting Muslim immigrants to Europe by Frau Merkel is, according to most Poles (and probably not only Poles), a very bad idea.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #37805
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First of all do you know that many Europeans are Muslims? Because as I said there are at least 5 countries in the Balkans with very large and dominant Muslim population.
Many of those are residents of EU and move freely and also millions of other Muslims who live in Germany, France, Sweden, Belgium and Austria as most dominant western Muslim habitats.

I think in the former communist countries of Central Europe, Christianity is strong because they are brainwashed and afraid of Muslim invasion. Thats why polls say 90% of Hungary is Christian which I strongly cant believe.
But then why do you stay in Europe as a union without borders? You should have abandon it long time ago and distance from Germany as you said.

But I also think things will calm down as the war in Syria and the refugees made very bad photo of the Muslims as infestators.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
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Old December 26th, 2017, 04:35 PM   #37806
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Yes, I know. I talk about what people think. Not about myself.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 05:18 PM   #37807
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Yes Muslims are a part of Europe. Nobody doubt that. On the other hand the promuslim agenda is really behind the line. Europe has been built on Christianity and thus it should not be changed. Yet Christianity should not abuse its majority.

I really hate this newspeak persuading me that all Muslims comming from the 3rd world countries have their hearts of gold and racist xenophobic Christians work as a severe obstacle in their development. Also the naivety of some people is harsh, resulting in such paradox scenes like the one of the UK Tesco advertisements where two Muslim lesbians give Christmas gift one to each other beneath the Christmas tree.

All we have to do is preserve our culture for the next generations, yet learn them to respect other cultures. I expect the same from other cultures too. If we really want to have a nice heterogeneous world to discover and to comfortably live in, we should not support the creation of the one supernation with features taken on different cultures. That world would be incredibly boring.

This of course is not any kind of defence for wicked authoritarian lusts attempted by low grade central european so called leaders.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 05:45 PM   #37808
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Excuse me for noting but everybody turns from its own position/country. For example Europe is strongly discriminating and stereotyping the Balkans. We are majority Orthodox but we are also Muslims in big percentage. Closely to 10 million Muslims live in the Balkans. They were part of Europe for generations although I said previously their ancestors were Orthodox because in the Byzantine the Balkans was Christian only.

Aside the history and politics, I think you cant stay in the club and share the same with Europe and at the same time deny what only bothers you.
Hungary, Poland and Slovakia obviously hate Muslims because of communist reasons, but strangely they love their position being part of the European western capitalist and open world.
Because you are part of the civilized world I really can't understand why you don't agree with legal Muslim migration, since those have rights to settle to your country.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

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Old December 26th, 2017, 05:54 PM   #37809
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I have never disagreed the legal Muslim immigration, have I?
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Old December 26th, 2017, 06:06 PM   #37810
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Europe has been built on Christianity and thus it should not be changed.
LOL
What has been built is already done and you think nothing will constantly change and mature. For example how would you explain the big percentages of atheism in the Netherlands? Why are polls above 50% for no believe in religion? Was this the same as the Christian foundation happened or you consider them to be equal as Christians?

My perspective is different than yours. Because in my country we were under Muslim occupation for 500 years. And somehow my ancestors preserved their Christianity. Should I say I dont like Muslim people or maybe we are considered as outsiders from the continent.
But today only politics is ruling and nobody say nothing about history they forget everything.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

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Old December 26th, 2017, 07:28 PM   #37811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
For example Europe is strongly discriminating and stereotyping the Balkans.
I like that you are against stereotyping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Hungary, Poland and Slovakia obviously hate Muslims because of communist reasons
But I'm afraid that you are stereotyping!

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Originally Posted by volodaaaa View Post
Europe has been built on Christianity and thus it should not be changed.
I think that Europe already existed earlier! For instance, the region where I live was christianized by an Irish missionary bishop in the 7th century!

I generally don't like that relgion and culture are mixed. I think culture is developed by the people over generations and the development (change!) will never stop. Religion was proselytized in Europe more than 1,000 years ago. Afterwards, the "ruled religion" changed every now and then just because the sovereign has decided to change the religion for any reason or villages were given from e.g. an Catholic sovereign to a Protestant sovereign in Germany. I live in a Catholic village and the "people" from neighboring Protestant villages... well... In the 1960s it was not favored or even not allowed that a Catholic and a Protestant person wanted to marry! It changed slowly in the 1970s/1980s... "Culture" is changing...


I have a colleague from Morocco at work. Muslim. He often talks about religion, rasism, diversity et cetera. Or just wants to know if one is married/has a girlfriend,... When he started working in my department (he already studied and worked about 10 years in Germany), I didn't liked him because I didn't liked his way of working. He should support me but he always walked around and wanted to talk to colleagues about private issues or talked to his wife on the phone all day.... When I asked him to support me, he just complained that he has soooooooo much to do... I was not amused.... Once he asked me if I have a problem with him because he's Muslim. I said that I don't care about religion and just don't like the way he works. We arranged somehow and we talk to each other now like we talk to anyone else. Of course, we are also kidding like "the guy with the suicide vest is coming". Why not.... Like my collegue from Rwanda. I asked him in 2008 what he think about "Berlusconi's remark". He didn't understand why anyone should see anything negative about this. When he came back from his next vacation, of course, I said that he looks young, handsome and tanned.


A cousin of mine is a teacher. She told me that it was not allowed this year to call her school's Christmas party "Christmas party" but it had to be called "year-end party"...
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Old December 26th, 2017, 08:21 PM   #37812
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LOL
What has been built is already done and you think nothing will constantly change and mature. For example how would you explain the big percentages of atheism in the Netherlands? Why are polls above 50% for no believe in religion? Was this the same as the Christian foundation happened or you consider them to be equal as Christians?

My perspective is different than yours. Because in my country we were under Muslim occupation for 500 years. And somehow my ancestors preserved their Christianity. Should I say I dont like Muslim people or maybe we are considered as outsiders from the continent.
But today only politics is ruling and nobody say nothing about history they forget everything.
First, it is not very wise to start a discussion with mocking the opponent. The "LOL" at the start of your post indicate you look down on me, but I think we haven't given enough scope to this very complex and difficult topic. It is pity.

The current state of Europe is a result of different factor: education, rather free and well developed society and maybe the divided Europe that contributed to some competitiveness among both political blocs. We inherited some Christian traditions wehave modified and made of medieval-primitive religion quite a modern religion that has been changing for years. Thus I consider Christianity not only to be a religion, a worshipping some imaginary disputable creatures, but a codex of good society.

I am not a practising Christian, I do not go to Churches, I do not listen to masses, I lived (and did the obvious things related) with my wife before our wedding, I swear sometimes, I hate the Church for considering women as they are without being a kind of wicked postmodern male-feminist. Yet I reckon that following the simple 10 commandments can make you a better person regardless of your religion.

Europe is built of it and hence is free. We have a freedom of speech, we do not have wars, we consider women to be equal (though some are always dissatisfied), we are after all a modern and viable society. This is the "Christianity" I am talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiH View Post

I think that Europe already existed earlier! For instance, the region where I live was christianized by an Irish missionary bishop in the 7th century!

I generally don't like that relgion and culture are mixed. I think culture is developed by the people over generations and the development (change!) will never stop. Religion was proselytized in Europe more than 1,000 years ago. Afterwards, the "ruled religion" changed every now and then just because the sovereign has decided to change the religion for any reason or villages were given from e.g. an Catholic sovereign to a Protestant sovereign in Germany. I live in a Catholic village and the "people" from neighboring Protestant villages... well... In the 1960s it was not favored or even not allowed that a Catholic and a Protestant person wanted to marry! It changed slowly in the 1970s/1980s... "Culture" is changing...


I have a colleague from Morocco at work. Muslim. He often talks about religion, rasism, diversity et cetera. Or just wants to know if one is married/has a girlfriend,... When he started working in my department (he already studied and worked about 10 years in Germany), I didn't liked him because I didn't liked his way of working. He should support me but he always walked around and wanted to talk to colleagues about private issues or talked to his wife on the phone all day.... When I asked him to support me, he just complained that he has soooooooo much to do... I was not amused.... Once he asked me if I have a problem with him because he's Muslim. I said that I don't care about religion and just don't like the way he works. We arranged somehow and we talk to each other now like we talk to anyone else. Of course, we are also kidding like "the guy with the suicide vest is coming". Why not.... Like my collegue from Rwanda. I asked him in 2008 what he think about "Berlusconi's remark". He didn't understand why anyone should see anything negative about this. When he came back from his next vacation, of course, I said that he looks young, handsome and tanned.


A cousin of mine is a teacher. She told me that it was not allowed this year to call her school's Christmas party "Christmas party" but it had to be called "year-end party"...
That is exactly what I talk about. In free society everyone does what they like, given that it does not breach a law or limit someone's else freedom. It has been common in Europe to do a Christmas parties. It does not breach anyone's freedom. If Muslims (or other religions) do not like it, they can just ignore it like I just ignore Ramadan. But I just can't stand this "wind of orthodox Islam" that is striving for prohibit something that was naturally natural - like dogs in public spaces, women in leading functions, women in bikinis, women in front of a steering wheel, LGBT agenda, Christmas time celebrations.

I do not understand people who support this. It has nothing to do with the freedom of speech. Needless to say this is a fuel for wicked populists and does not give a good reputation for normal Muslims that has been living in Europe for decades.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 08:42 PM   #37813
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First, it is not very wise to start a discussion with mocking the opponent. The "LOL" at the start of your post indicate you look down on me, but I think we haven't given enough scope to this very complex and difficult topic. It is pity.

The current state of Europe is a result of different factor: education, rather free and well developed society and maybe the divided Europe that contributed to some competitiveness among both political blocs. We inherited some Christian traditions wehave modified and made of medieval-primitive religion quite a modern religion that has been changing for years. Thus I consider Christianity not only to be a religion, a worshipping some imaginary disputable creatures, but a codex of good society.

I am not a practising Christian, I do not go to Churches, I do not listen to masses, I lived (and did the obvious things related) with my wife before our wedding, I swear sometimes, I hate the Church for considering women as they are without being a kind of wicked postmodern male-feminist. Yet I reckon that following the simple 10 commandments can make you a better person regardless of your religion.

Europe is built of it and hence is free. We have a freedom of speech, we do not have wars, we consider women to be equal (though some are always dissatisfied), we are after all a modern and viable society. This is the "Christianity" I am talking about.
First of all I am not mocking here, and the one that look down on someone is Europe looking to Balkan. Those who stereotype should be ready to be stereotyped.
Because I am from the Balkan I can tell you that we are stereotyped as being of 'lower sort'. Orthodoxy is also stereotyped by the West as its in different policital baloon, we as Orthodox our biggest ally is Russia and politics is in the eastern Christian churches also.
Now because I said previously your country was communist and you managed to reform and became part of the western open world, but you critisze those who have legal right to settle.
Alone in Germany there are 7 million muslims that are citizens? If so they might soon decide to move to Slovakia because you are part of the same very civilized world (that apparently considered the woman to be equal).

My origin is from the Balkan and I don't have good words for Europe because we are of lower sort for them as for their politics. Because we have many Muslims and other things that distinguish from the western world..... But they don't read history they only did wealth and politics.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
the same security and the same rights as all other citizens of the European family, right on their own continent."

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Old December 26th, 2017, 09:16 PM   #37814
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So, what did Santa bring you?

I got some socks, a shirt and a plane ticket. You?
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my clinched highways
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:00 PM   #37815
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Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
the one that look down on someone is Europe looking to Balkan.

My origin is from the Balkan and I don't have good words for Europe
Junkie, if I get YOU right, YOU think that Balkan is not part of Europe? Or are there two kind of Europe - a "true" and "false" one?

Nevertheless, I don't agree!

I cannot speak for all Europeans (with or without Balkan) but I don't think that there is a general opposition about Balkans. In Germany, Romania and Bulgaria are in media if EU stats are published (they are mentioned because they are often at the bottom of the stats and free-media reports about the top and the end), when there are talks about prostitution and beggar or talks about "cheap" worker (positive and negative, e.g. a product assembly was moved this year from a plant in Germany to a plant in RO, the Germany plant was closed and more than 100 worker lost their job). Western Balkans was in media in the past 2 years because of the refugees tramp and Balkans was in media in the 1990s because of the war in Western Balkans. That's it. Sorry, but - minimum people around me - have other topics/problems than thinking or talking (bad) about Balkan...

Edit: Germans talk about summer vacation in Croatia.

I have no problem with Balkans* and I feel (a little bit) bothered when you stereotype "ALL (WESTERN) EUROPEANS" because this might include me!

*Maybe except of some persons I personally know but these are persons not peoples, regions or countries.

Quote:
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Alone in Germany there are 7 million muslims that are citizens?
I think about 5 million Muslims live in Germany today.
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Last edited by MichiH; December 26th, 2017 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Croatia added
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:00 PM   #37816
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Christianity is undoubtely a big component of European/Western culture. Even non-religious people are somehow influenced by the Christian background. But there are other components of the European/Western culture. For example the "Liberté Egalité Fraternité" ideal and all consequent human rights movements of the last 2 centuries.
Western societies should be open and tolerant towards other cultures, but should never try to erase their own to appear more tolerant towards others. We shouldn't remove Christian symbols or halt public celebrations because someone who came from far away may be offended. If they want, they are free to show their own symbols or to make their own celebrations. We shoud allow other cultures and religions until the point that they don't conflict with our laws (for example, religion-motivated terrorism, family violence, child marriages, or female genital mutilations are serious crimes and must be punished as such).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #37817
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Thats why polls say 90% of Hungary is Christian which I strongly cant believe.
What's the method adopted to define who is Christian and who isn't?
In Italy, statistically, everyone who has been baptized is a Christian. It means that the "official" percentage of Christians is extremely high, although those who actually believe and practice are much less.
There are no religious censuses or profiling.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:31 PM   #37818
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Also do you know that in Europe you have at least 3 Muslim countries where the Islam is prevalent?
Muslims are prevalent in Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia, these are continental European countries.
Nope. In Bosnia and Herzegovina Christianity is prevalent.
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #37819
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Check you numbers and see the last census in 2013.
Muslims 51%
Orthodox Serbs 30%
Catholic Croats 15%

Not speaking about the fact that Serbs and Croats in Bosnia are very big political and social enemies and they live in separate entities and they don't respect their religion, specially orthodoxy is not respected from the Croats.
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Brexit is a disaster for Europe because of the English language itself!

The Western Balkans is already in Europe i.e., it is in the heart of Europe and all of these nations want and deserve to have the same chance,
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Old December 26th, 2017, 10:43 PM   #37820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
Check you numbers and see the last census in 2013.
Muslims 51%
Orthodox Serbs 30%
Catholic Croats 15%

Not speaking about the fact that Serbs and Croats in Bosnia are very big political and social enemies and they live in separate entities and they don't respect their religion, specially orthodoxy is not respected from the Croats.
Oh, that census. Okay. Christianity has dropped for some 20% suddenly. Let it be.

Btw, in what sense Orthodoxy is not respected by Croats there? Or in other words - how is Catholicism respected by others?
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