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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:07 PM   #37881
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I think the problem is, the policemen would have to memorize all the car brands, models and versions and what Euro emission norms they satisfy.
The Polish policemen cannot read? The restrictions are based of the vehicle registration certificate, which has been regulated by the EU since 1999.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 10:07 PM   #37882
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Where exactly?

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Old January 1st, 2018, 12:26 AM   #37883
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From June 4th, there will be new rules for the young drivers in Poland.

A person who gets a driving licence, in the first 8 months, will have to apply to lower speed limits:
- 50 km/h (instead of 50/60 km/h or up to 80 km/h if increased by road signs) in the built-up area,
- 80 km/h (instead of 90/100 km/h) out of the built-up area,
- 100 km/h (instead of 120/140 km/h) on expressways and motorways.

Converted to mph:
- 30 mph (instead of 30/37 mph or up to 50 mph if increased by road signs) in the built-up area,
- 50 mph (instead of 55/62 mph) out of the built-up area,
- 62 mph (instead of 75/87 mph) on expressways and motorways.

He will not be allowed to work as a driver (even in jobs like pizza delivery) during those 8 months.

Between the 4th and 8th month after getting the driving licence, the driver will have to undergo an additional training in safe driving techniques: 2 hours of theory and 1 hour of practice on a track.

Furthermore, if someone is caught breaking the traffic law in any way during the first two years of having the licence, he will have to undergo another additional training and visit a psychologist. The trial period will be extended to the next two years (four years in total). If he breaks the law for the third time, he will lose the driving licence.

What do you think about that? Do you have so strict rules for new drivers in your countries?
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Old January 1st, 2018, 12:29 AM   #37884
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That is stupid. It only encourages more dangerous passing on two-lane roads. And driving 100 km/h where 140 is the speed limit can be deceptive because most people don't expect passenger cars to go that slow, especially at night. With a truck, you know it doesn't go fast.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 01:24 AM   #37885
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It is incredibly dangerous to force new drivers to go way below the speed limit on the safest of all road infrastructure - controlled-access highways.

Driving on highways requires the driver only to pay attention on other cars. It is something relatively easy to learn once you practice it at daylight. It is certainly less cognitively demanding than driving on city streets.

If anything, restricting driving to daylight hours during the first months would make much more sense. There is also some evidence that banning new teenage drivers from transporting other teenage friends with them also reduce accident rates.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 05:02 AM   #37886
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Recently, I got to know that accidents on the Polish motorways and expressways are more frequent on motorways than on other road. It's on the contrary to the popular belief that motorways are the safest kind of road. The reason is, in most cases, not keeping the proper distance by the drivers.

In the city, keeping the distance is often impossible, because if you leave a gap ahead of you, it's quickly filled by someone else, and as a result, many drivers would overpass you and your journey gets longer as you are caught by red lights you wouldn't otherwise. But on the motorway, it's not such a problem. You are overtaken by many drivers anyway because while you e.g. want to drive 120 km/h, there are others willing to drive e.g. 140 km/h, because they have better cars with bigger engines, so it doesn't cost them much more fuel and/or are in hurry. And a motorway always has multiple (at least 2) lanes for a direction, so maintaining different speeds by different drivers is, in general, possible.

Although still, if the motorway is busy and e.g. with only two lanes for a direction, there is usually a column of trucks on the right lane (driving about 90-100 km/h), and the left lane is used very much. So driving at the speed of an order of 120 km/h, or even 140 km/h is difficult and you must often change the speed: you must overtake the trucks, but at the same time, you often have to return to the right lane to let those who want to drive faster than you go.

But it has nothing to do with keeping the distance. Being overtaken by others is just an inherent part of driving on a motorway, so keeping the distance is not a problem. It's different in the city, where you usually really don't want to be overtaken, because then you waste much time. Because most of our motorways are new, maybe the drivers try to follow the customs from the city, not realizing that on motorways, with the motorway speeds, keeping the distance is much more crucial than in the city.

Returning to the topic - while normally, the young drivers (except for those really fresh) would just exceed those limits special for them and do not cause so much problem on the roads, when there is a situation when you lose the right to drive with three fines in four years (and with two of them, it's already costly for you), they may be more afraid of that and do as the law says.

Although in practice, it's not so easy to get caught for speeding. I am still quite a fresh driver and luckily, I never got caught, although it happens to me to exceed the limit. But it's usually so that when the speed of drivers is being checked, everyone drives according to the rules, so you are warned.

Other rules that I happened to break are, for example, overtaking on a zebra crossing on a street with multiple lanes in one direction (and once, there was even a pedestrian that started walking through it, luckily not yet on my lane - it's really dangerous, but also undermined by many drivers) - now I am trying to control myself in such cases. Thinking about overtaking people usually mean changing the lane, passing next to another vehicle driving in the same direction and returning to your lane, and it usually looks so on roads with one lane in each direction. But on a road with multiple lanes in a single direction, especially one in a city, overtaking may occur even if you don't change your lane at all (you may not even be aware of that you are overtaking someone - or, at least, it happens so to me), and it's probably even more dangerous on pedestrian crossings than the classical overtaking as I described before.

And in Poland we also have that rule that if turning right on red is allowed, you are still obliged to stop on red and only after the stopping, you can start driving again. I have never ever seen a car that would follow this rule, other than learner's or driving exam car. And I also don't really follow it. That means, of course, I slow down and let the pedestrians pass (if there are any), but anyway, in Poland it usually works so that the green arrow allowing to turn right on red appears some seconds after the green light for the pedestrians, so that when it appears, the pedestrians are most likely already on the lane.

Another thing, and a point of endless discussion on the Polish SSC section (they had to forbid this topic on the forum, because it always ended with proponents of various theories on that topic) is using the indicators on roundabouts. In Germany, it's forbidden to use the left indicator on a roundabout at all. In the UK, it's recommended that you turn on the left indicator before entering the roundabout if you are going to leave the roundabout with the exit on your left. And how is it in Poland? The problem is that the rules of our law are very unclear concerning this topic.

Generally, there is no notion of roundabout in our traffic code. A kind of place that is commonly known as a roundabout is called "an intersection with circular traffic". And this is practically all what our traffic law says about the roundabouts (there are one or two places in the code where they are mentioned, but it has nothing to do with using the indicators). From that comes the conclusion that a roundabout should be treated in the same way as each other intersection. What the code says about using the indicators on intersections? That you should indicate the intention of changing the lane or the direction of movement. And the term of "direction of movement" from the traffic code is commonly interpreted as the specific road on which you are driving, because it's obvious that you won't use the indicator on just a curve. From that comes the conclusion that if you turn left (you enter a road on the left), you should blink the left indicator, if you turn right, the right one.

But the circumference of a roundabout is not considered to be a road (if I am not mistaken, it's different in Germany, where it's considered to be a road), it's just a part of an intersection, or, one could say, just a common part of multiple roads. So... from that it seems that one should conclude, that, simply, when you enter the roundabout and you want to turn left, you should indicate turning left, when you want to turn right, you should indicate turning right, when you want to drive forward, you shouldn't indicate at all. But it would be stupid, because on practically all roundabouts, the traffic is organised so that the drivers entering the roundabout must give way to those driving along its circumference. So the most useful information for the other drivers is whether you are leaving the roundabout just now, or not yet. So the interpretation I wrote about is totally impractical. Everybody indicates that he wants to leave the roundabout, it's considered the only correct way in practice by the driving examination centers and by the police. Most drivers also start indicating that they will turn left (leave the roundabout with the first exit) even before entering it and it doesn't seem to be against any law, it's fully OK with the law and it's even practical.

But there is still a dispute whether a driver entering the roundabout has to indicate that he wants to turn left or not, or maybe (according to some) he shouldn't do it at all. Of course, if he does it, it's rather clear to everyone that he shouldn't do it all the time while on the roundabout. If I follow this version, I do it so that I turn off the left indicator when I'm passing the "to the right" exit and I turn on the right indicator when I'm passing the "forward" exit. Of course, it's about a totally symmetric four-exit roundabout - for a more weird one, the scheme would have to be adjusted.

And I was also taught to do so on my driving course. But in practice, very few drivers do that and most indicate only just the exit. And some time ago I also started doing so, after I read comments of some users, or people, that using the left indicator has no sense and may distract other drivers.

This is definitely a thing that should be normalized by the Vienna convention, and it seems it isn't if in Germany and in the UK, they have totally different rules, and in Poland... we pretend we have rules, but in practice, we don't have them.

Anyway, it happens to me to break the rules, sometimes by accident like with overtaking on zebras (although I really regret that as I see how dangerous it may be), probably due to lack of experience, sometimes kind of deliberately (driving faster than allowed - still, I am trying to do no more than those 70 km/h on allowed 50), it also happens to me to drive through an intersection in the last moment of the yellow light when it's about to change to red (and changes in the meantime) or even has just changed to red, and it seems you must be really unlucky to be fined for such things.

So, maybe, the young drivers will not be so strict in following those new rules, as they also aren't with the normal rules now.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 10:12 AM   #37887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Another thing [...] is using the indicators on roundabouts. In Germany, it's forbidden to use the left indicator on a roundabout at all. In the UK, it's recommended that you turn on the left indicator before entering the roundabout if you are going to leave the roundabout with the exit on your left.
I think the latter is not only used in UK but also in France and/or Benelux? I don't remember exactly.....

I saw it and understood the advantage. However, I think it would be useless in Germany because most of the roundabouts have islands and these do usually have a little hill so that you don't see cars entering the roundabout from the opposite site.

It's mandatory in Germany to use indicators on leaving the roundabout but..... It's usually not done....
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Old January 1st, 2018, 10:36 AM   #37888
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
What do you think about that? Do you have so strict rules for new drivers in your countries?
Motorway may be OK, I think. 100 km/h is not extremely slow, and cars driving 100 km/h may be overtaken easily. However, it does not make any sense for me.
The other ones may be dangerous: more cars will overtake him, even if it's not safe.

I could accept or even support limitations like young/enexperienced drivers may only drive having an older/more experienced person in the car as well.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 11:31 AM   #37889
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Recently, I got to know that accidents on the Polish motorways and expressways are more frequent on motorways than on other road. It's on the contrary to the popular belief that motorways are the safest kind of road.
Motorways carry the highest volume of traffic, so accidents are more common, but they tend to be less severe.

Because traffic is moving in the same direction, with oncoming traffic divided by barriers and cross-streets with overpasses and interchanges, the fatality rate on motorways is usually the lowest of any road type.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 12:00 PM   #37890
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Happy new year!

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Old January 1st, 2018, 12:00 PM   #37891
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Fact: US 18 and US 20 are concurrent between Orin and Lusk, Wyoming. However US 18 starts in Orin, and is concurrent with other US routes (US 20 and US 85) to Mule Creek Junction, IMO they should truncate it there (US 18 ended there until around 1970).
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
What do you think about that? Do you have so strict rules for new drivers in your countries?
Spain used to have a 80 km/h limit for new drivers, but was abolished in 2011.
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Recently, I got to know that accidents on the Polish motorways and expressways are more frequent on motorways than on other road. It's on the contrary to the popular belief that motorways are the safest kind of road. The reason is, in most cases, not keeping the proper distance by the drivers.
They may be the safest, but I find them boring (except in a montainous terrain), so it doesn't suprise me (kind of).
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In Germany, it's forbidden to use the left indicator on a roundabout at all. In the UK, it's recommended that you turn on the left indicator before entering the roundabout if you are going to leave the roundabout with the exit on your left.
This is like comparing apples to oranges, as Germany drives on the right and the UK drives on the left. Replacing "left" with "right" on the UK rule, both make sense for me, as it's simply impossible to turn left (right in left-handed traffic countries) when entering a roundabout, and I always turn the indicator on when leaving one (even as I'm entering if I take the first exit).
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Old January 1st, 2018, 12:35 PM   #37892
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I work in the field of sustainable mobility and traffic calming and the most essential rule is this: the most dangerous driver is the one who is not paying attention. It works both for cities and highways.

When you are on motorway, you set the cruise control turn on the lane departure alert and literally make yourself a passenger slightly steering a wheel and turning on the indicators. Compare this with driving on a snow covered mountain pass and imagine a rabbit crossing the road. What could end up worse?
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Old January 1st, 2018, 12:37 PM   #37893
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That's why anything less than level 5 autonomous driving is dangerous. You can't expect people not having to do anything in 98% of the time, but at the same time be alert to react in a moment's notice. Humans are bad at semi-automated processes, because they become complacent.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 01:01 PM   #37894
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I fully agree! Semi-automated driving is a nice but dangerous gimmick only...
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Old January 1st, 2018, 01:08 PM   #37895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
Another thing [...] is using the indicators on roundabouts. In Germany, it's forbidden to use the left indicator on a roundabout at all. In the UK, it's recommended that you turn on the left indicator before entering the roundabout if you are going to leave the roundabout with the exit on your left.
I think you've mistaken left/right.

Germany: Don't indicate on entering at all, indicate right at the exit you leave.

What I've seen in other countries: Indicate on entering the roundabout if you wanna leave at the 3rd exit*. That means if you wanna turn left when right-hand driving you indicate left or turn right when left-hand driving you have to indicate right.
*out of 4 exits to simplify the description.

Or have I got you wrong?
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Old January 1st, 2018, 02:55 PM   #37896
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I think you've mistaken left/right.

Germany: Don't indicate on entering at all, indicate right at the exit you leave.

What I've seen in other countries: Indicate on entering the roundabout if you wanna leave at the 3rd exit*. That means if you wanna turn left when right-hand driving you indicate left or turn right when left-hand driving you have to indicate right.
*out of 4 exits to simplify the description.

Or have I got you wrong?
In Slovakia
Legislation: right indicator for exit, left indicator never.
Practice: no indicator for exit, sometimes left for unclear reasons
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Old January 1st, 2018, 04:25 PM   #37897
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This is like comparing apples to oranges, as Germany drives on the right and the UK drives on the left. Replacing "left" with "right" on the UK rule, both make sense for me, as it's simply impossible to turn left (right in left-handed traffic countries) when entering a roundabout, and I always turn the indicator on when leaving one (even as I'm entering if I take the first exit).
Well, I forgot about that fact. Of course, for the UK, left is replaced with right and vice versa. The UK recommends using the right indicator while entering onto the roundabout if you wanna use the exit "to the right". Because using the left indicator even before entering the roundabout if you are turning left (using the first exit) is quite obvious, as you don't have to turn it off or change to the other one at all.

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Originally Posted by MichiH View Post
What I've seen in other countries: Indicate on entering the roundabout if you wanna leave at the 3rd exit*. That means if you wanna turn left when right-hand driving you indicate left or turn right when left-hand driving you have to indicate right.
*out of 4 exits to simplify the description.

Or have I got you wrong?
Yes. So in Poland:
- legislation: says nothing apart from treating a roundabout just like any intersection,
- how they taught me on the course: indicate on entering the roundabout if you wanna leave at the 3rd exit (the one to your left - personally, I wouldn't do it if the third exit is forward and there is no exit to the left) + use the right indicator at the exit,
- practice (most drivers do so): only use the right indicator at the exit.

And in practice, it often happens that the exit from the roundabout is so far from a right angle that the indicator doesn't turn off automatically after leaving it and you have to do it manually.

A different thing are also the "square" roundabouts converted from a normal intersection, like this one:



Here, indicating like on a normal intersection makes quite a lot of sense.

But they recently modernized this intersection to a normal roundabout (or even to a turbo one, I am not sure), because such a configuration was dangerous, there were many drivers not noticing it's a roundabout and causing accidents.

See here how it looked like from the perspective of a driver: https://goo.gl/maps/Rw4EQV7ctGP2

1 km to the north, there is another intersection, which also had such a shape and was a roundabout. There, they converted it to a normal intersection with traffic lights.

Another thing that is also not really clear in our legislation, and actually sometimes leads to dangerous situation, is on multi-lane roundabouts. Can you leave the roundabout from the left (internal) lane?

It's rather obvious that regardless whether you can do it or not, it's rather not recommended, and if you do it, you have to give way to those on the right (external) lane. But not everyone follows that and then, there are accidents.

Concerning the motorways, the accidents on motorways may be more dangerous than on other roads because of much higher speeds.

In Poland, there is 5 times more accidents and their victims on motorways than on other roads. For 1 km of the road, of course, because this is the only sensible way of comparing that. In total, the number of accidents on motorways is much lower than on other roads, but only because there is much less motorways than other roads in Poland.
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Old January 1st, 2018, 05:04 PM   #37898
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In Slovakia
Legislation: right indicator for exit, left indicator never.
Practice: no indicator for exit, sometimes left for unclear reasons
Ok, Slovakia is very similar to Germany about that. I think minimum 2 out 3 don't use the indicators at roundabout exits at all in Germany. At busy roundabouts you have to wait for entering which ends up in queues... It's better at normal junctions but most drivers trigger it after slowing down or even braking which is far too late... The same for changing lanes on Autobahns.... Step 1: Turn steering wheel, step 2: indicators on, step 3: have a look into the mirror....

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- practice (most drivers do so): only use the right indicator at the exit.
A dream... Really!
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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:03 PM   #37899
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Always use right indicator when exiting a roundabout. I also use the left one when entering if I'm going to any exit after "straight through".
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Old January 1st, 2018, 06:50 PM   #37900
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But is it common/obligatory in Sweden to do so?
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