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Old December 2nd, 2011, 11:55 PM   #11801
seem
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lol

Watch this - speaking piano, ars electronica Linz -

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Old December 3rd, 2011, 02:57 AM   #11802
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Quote:
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I would say the rule should be 1,2 or max 3 photos per opening motorway.
That's fine with me.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 09:33 AM   #11803
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Meanwhile, in Durban (again!)...

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Old December 3rd, 2011, 04:05 PM   #11804
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NIMBYs are no new species. In 1839 (that is right), they were already campaigning against new railroads in Pennsylvania

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Old December 3rd, 2011, 04:17 PM   #11805
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Reminds me of those anti-130 km/h people in the Netherlands. They say "man was not made for speed". How thin can your arguments get?
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 04:50 PM   #11806
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I think that everybody can be NIMBY, it depends from the circumstances...
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 04:57 PM   #11807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
NIMBYs are no new species. In 1839 (that is right), they were already campaigning against new railroads in Pennsylvania
Back in the 1840 when they were building the main railway track from Bratislava to Trnava there was huge propaganda in a town of Modra that railway will bring the increase in crime and moral decay so the local council refused to allow construction of the railway so it just bypassed Modra.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 04:58 PM   #11808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Reminds me of those anti-130 km/h people in the Netherlands. They say "man was not made for speed". How thin can your arguments get?
A lot of people think that nature is perfect. If it were perfect, there wouldn't be lions killing antelopes, and antelopes dying in horrible pains.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM   #11809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seem View Post
Back in the 1840 when they were building the main railway track from Bratislava to Trnava there was huge propaganda in a town of Modra that railway will bring the increase in crime and moral decay so the local council refused to allow construction of the railway so it just bypassed Modra.
The same argument is still used nowadays 170 years later.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 05:34 PM   #11810
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Quote:
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I think that everybody can be NIMBY, it depends from the circumstances...
The problem is the inherent hypocrisy of modern times NIMBYs. Up to the 1960s, people would most likely demand (or hope depending on the regime) to be compensated if their property was expropriated and so.

But to have a railway, power line, airport or highway built next to your house was considered just a "fact of life", people sucked it up and moved on.

Now, people who have all comforts of modern life like good roads/highways and railways/subways, travel on airplanes to other continents on the cheap, have 24/7/365 electricity and heating to feed all their appliances etc. will oppose infrastructure they use routinely, because they can't be "harassed" with "a windmill generator and power lines spoiling my view".

That has to do with over-the-top premium for certain features of real estate that once went unnoticed: people buy a house for 3 times the price because of "gorgeous lake views" and then fight to death because a new power line will "destroy" their overpriced, double-mortgaged estate.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 06:08 PM   #11811
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I think we have to distinguish two things: what is necessary and what is a speculation. Cause not all the things built are necessary and not always they are built in the best way. So, if somebody wants to invest his money in a property with a "gorgeous lake view" is free to do it (cause not everybody like to live in huge city). If to build a new power line is necessary cause without let's say the whole town will have a problem of lack of electricity, also there's nothing to be against it. The only thing to discuss is how to realize it, to create less impact on the living enviroment with reasonable costs. But if to build the new powerline is just cause somebody, with the help of some friend and some bribes, got the contract work to build something of doubt public service cause his villa on the top of the mountain with better view on the "georgeous lake" has no electricty, also I believe people is right to protest. And we saw well especially in Italy how many times the are projects of something which should be a good thing for the community which are then abandoned or built in half cause money are magically disappeared.
There's also another point of view about the hypocrisy of NIMBYs and this is the hypocrisy of PITBYs; those persons which agree push for new constructions as long as they are far from they estates and their interests.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 06:15 PM   #11812
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I think these things must be treated with moderation. I don't like NIMBYs, but I don't like BAEENE (Build Absolutely Everything, Everywhere, near Everything). There are some places where you cannot build or better, where you can build only if it does not damage some particularly valuable spot. As nobody wants to tear down St. Peter's Church to build a motorway over it, I think nobody wants to ruin Garda Lake or Mount Rushmore or something like that with a 10-lane turnpike over it.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 06:25 PM   #11813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
As nobody wants to tear down St. Peter's Church to build a motorway over it, I think nobody wants to ruin Garda Lake or Mount Rushmore or something like that with a 10-lane turnpike over it.
Are you sure? Money talks... if somebody would have the possibility to do such things believe me, he would do. Especially if maybe he lives in the other side of the world... An example could be the Three Gorges Dam, which submerged over 1300 archeological sites and evicted over 1,4 millions of people. Or we can speak about Abu Simbel... thanks UNESCO if now is not underwater...
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 07:18 PM   #11814
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Even at risk of sounding racist, I don't consider Egypt, or even less China, to be role models.
I was however talking about normal people, not constructors. Obviously who owns or works for a construction society would build even over their own mothers. I believe that Chinese people, had they the possibility to speak without being executed, would have spoken firmly against Three Gorges dam.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 07:19 PM   #11815
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Another NIMBYsm right point is that without their activities, the enviromental standards of construction would have never been enhanced.

Sure, ther are cases, when people completaly refuse new construction. But I think that in most of the cases, NIMBYs are willing to accept an suitable alternative, that is however costlier and more sophisticated. If there were not objections the most cheap and direct solutions would be undertaken. I dont like the most cheap solution because they show costly in the long term.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 07:36 PM   #11816
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It is not always like that, at least in Italy often the cheapest solution is never undertaken. Take for instance the NoTAV movement near Turin, opposing to the construction of the high speed rail and tunnel towards France. The existent railways is alread under-utilized, and the mountain where the tunnel is planned is already known to be full of asbestos. So they say "upgrade the existing line and leaveeith us be". I don't think this is being NIMBY: they just want to save their lives and propose a cheaper solution, which is however not taken into consideration.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 07:42 PM   #11817
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Quote:
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Another NIMBYsm right point is that without their activities, the enviromental standards of construction would have never been enhanced.
That was true in the 1960's. Times have changed, almost every developed country has legislation to mitigate environmental impact. Today's appeals against projects have more to do with "I don't want to move for this project" or "I don't want my view spoiled" than environmental standards.

Dutch legislation has changed in a way that you can only legally appeal if you are demonstrably affected by a project, which reduces the amount of appeals of activitst groups who are against any development even if it includes massive environmental mitigation (such as tunnels).
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 07:55 PM   #11818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
It is not always like that, at least in Italy often the cheapest solution is never undertaken. Take for instance the NoTAV movement near Turin, opposing to the construction of the high speed rail and tunnel towards France. The existent railways is alread under-utilized, and the mountain where the tunnel is planned is already known to be full of asbestos. So they say "upgrade the existing line and leaveeith us be". I don't think this is being NIMBY: they just want to save their lives and propose a cheaper solution, which is however not taken into consideration.
I totally agree with you, but you know what said Sergio Chiamparino, the ex major of Turin? He said "those people in Susa valley are just NIMBYs against the "progress"". As i said before, to be NIMBY depends of circumstances.... for you, as for me, those persons aren't NIMBYs... for Chiamparino they are. Who's right???

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Old December 3rd, 2011, 08:04 PM   #11819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Even at risk of sounding racist, I don't consider Egypt, or even less China, to be role models.
I was however talking about normal people, not constructors. Obviously who owns or works for a construction society would build even over their own mothers.
You're not racist, it's fact thay are not role models...but who can we take as role model? We italians not, we have/had a lot of eco-monsters that somebody built and somebody else autorized the construction. The first jumps in my mind, that huge complex of buildings built on the seaside of Bari demolited few years ago. It was built in 1995, so not long time ago. So in some cases NIMBYs are necessary to stop such constructors (and all them friends) which would build even over their own mothers for few money....
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 08:58 PM   #11820
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Quote:
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Even at risk of sounding racist, I don't consider Egypt, or even less China, to be role models.
Me neither, but there's a saying in Slovenian "denar, sveta vladar" (money, the ruler of the world), and it holds for the whole world, not just Egypt and China.

Btw, is there a similar saying in English?
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