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Old December 3rd, 2011, 09:05 PM   #11821
g.spinoza
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Yes, that sentence of mine was unfortunate. I think this is not a matter of China vs. Europe, but of rich&powerful vs. rest of the world.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 09:42 PM   #11822
Satyricon84
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But we can't negate there are countries which are civic-minded than others. Let's take Sweden for example, it's a developed country but at the same time his developing doesn't alterate too much the living enviroment. So it's true, money rules the world, but a well educated and civic-minded population helps against speculation and destruction of something which belongs to everybody and to nobody: the Earth
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 09:57 PM   #11823
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Sweden is a huge and sparsely populated country, comparable in a way to Canada or Australia. That is not the case of Italy.

The case of Alpine valleys is typical: due to geography, there is no possible way to link both side of Alps without building massive infrastructure over Alpine valleys. Valleys that, one must say, have less population now then they had when Grand Paradiso was still a King's hunting reserve in 1890.

So, to an extent, a high-voltage power line, high-speed rail or else don't actually benefit the residents there more than the impairments it might cause. However, when it comes to the fastest France-Italy rail connection, that might just be a price to be paid.

Most of the inconvenience of the HSR Torino-Lyon is just aesthetic, with a massive structure being in front of whole village's face. But there is just no way around it, unless you want a 250km tunnel costing € 200 billions. Then you have people exaggerating doomsday scenarios, like arguing the valley can be flooded because of drainage of the water table, or people going bizarre with allegations of "the dangers of excavating so deep that unknown germs might be released into the atmosphere". Moreover, in the specific case of Susa valley, the most vocal protesters are not even local, but members of Legambiente and other extremist organizations.

I think one should consider the usefulness of any infrastructure versus the damage it will cause. So a massive dam like Three Gorges might bury a lot of sites under water, but it provides a massive amount of energy. Ditto for a highway that links important points in the network.

As for Garda lake: I don't think a single, 2x2 link Varena - Menaggio would damage the whole lake, on the contrary, it would be extremely cool to have a link between two sides of the lake, but it requires a submersed tunnel because of the topography of the lake floor.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 10:20 PM   #11824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seem View Post
In Finnish it means something like good or alright.
No.. "kurva" in Finnish means simply "curve". As in, "there's a curve in the road".
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 10:30 PM   #11825
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Quote:
As for Garda lake: I don't think a single, 2x2 link Varena - Menaggio would damage the whole lake, on the contrary, it would be extremely cool to have a link between two sides of the lake, but it requires a submersed tunnel because of the topography of the lake floor.
Varenna and Menaggio are on Como Lake, not Garda. And they are already linked by ferry
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 10:32 PM   #11826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Varenna and Menaggio are on Como Lake, not Garda. And they are already linked by ferry
My bad, don't know how I mixed it.

I know there is a ferry on the Varenna, Menaggio and Belaggio triangle, but I think they should build a tunnel between the two shores of Como lake, those ferries are lousy, slow and the lines take AGES on summer and holidays.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 10:38 PM   #11827
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Do you know how deep Lago di Como is? Up to 400 m.
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 10:42 PM   #11828
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As long as it would be a tunnel which wouldn't alterate the landscape I could also agree with this proposal. But we have to see if the relation costs/traffic would be worth for such construction which isn't cheap by sure
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Old December 3rd, 2011, 11:11 PM   #11829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Most of the inconvenience of the HSR Torino-Lyon is just aesthetic, with a massive structure being in front of whole village's face. But there is just no way around it, unless you want a 250km tunnel costing € 200 billions. Then you have people exaggerating doomsday scenarios, like arguing the valley can be flooded because of drainage of the water table, or people going bizarre with allegations of "the dangers of excavating so deep that unknown germs might be released into the atmosphere". Moreover, in the specific case of Susa valley, the most vocal protesters are not even local, but members of Legambiente and other extremist organizations.
In case you didn't know, the boring of Gran Sasso tunnel completely destroyed hydrography of that part of Abruzzo. Some ground water, and even some torrents, have been depleted by more than 95%.

And the presence of asbestos within the mountain in Susa is proven, the "expert" say there is nothing to worry about, but you know that these kind of "experts" are not to be trusted because they're paid by the construction companies and by the State.

So the damages can be and have been very serious. You can't just dismiss them as NIMBY hysteria.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 12:19 AM   #11830
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there's not only the presence of asbestos but uranium too
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Old December 4th, 2011, 01:12 AM   #11831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That was true in the 1960's. Times have changed, almost every developed country has legislation to mitigate environmental impact. Today's appeals against projects have more to do with "I don't want to move for this project" or "I don't want my view spoiled" than environmental standards.
.
Well, the existence of such a legislation just proves my point. And maybe I laid my words in a wrong way but the discussion above just shows that NIMBYsm indeed increases the enviromental issues importance. Just asks yourself a qustion. If the big constructions were without pollution, they would look beautifull as countryside in the spring time, they would not make any noise, and they would bring about wealth and welfare, who would protest against them. So most of not in my backyard is actually about decrease in the enviroment quality in my backyard.

Last edited by Surel; December 4th, 2011 at 01:21 AM.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:00 AM   #11832
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Meanwhile in Spain...
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:01 AM   #11833
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Also people against Vajont dam were crircized as nimbies (not with that word, that doesn't exist back then, but the concept was the same) by politicians and contractors interested in the project.

And about asbesto under mountain in Val di Susa: yes, it's the same asbesto that killed thousands (not an exageration, really thousands, but only God know the exact number) of people (workers and people living nearby) during decades in factories and shipyards across Italy.
About uranium: is the cause of well known disasters such Chernobyl and Fukushima, so probably other explanations are useless.

Nimbies against windmills, photovoltaics, roads or railways in country areas with no particular landscapes are ridiculous but when there are risks for safety and health they're right.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:06 AM   #11834
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Do you know how deep Lago di Como is? Up to 400 m.
425 m is the deepest point, probably where they will build the tunnel is less.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:09 AM   #11835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
But we can't negate there are countries which are civic-minded than others. Let's take Sweden for example, it's a developed country but at the same time his developing doesn't alterate too much the living enviroment. So it's true, money rules the world, but a well educated and civic-minded population helps against speculation and destruction of something which belongs to everybody and to nobody: the Earth
Absolutely, but you said "money talks" already in this post. You gave examples from China and Egypt, but I think there're many people even in Sweden who would do the same for (enough) money.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:19 AM   #11836
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Yes is right. Maybe I expressed bad myself, what I meant is that if you live in a society well educated and civic-minded, these speculators which care only about money don't have a rich soil where grow their dirty business. Otherway round, where there's almost no civic-mind these speculations win on the people. For me Italy is in the middle, not in the level of China or Egypt but far from Sweden, Germany....
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:25 AM   #11837
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Absolutely, but you said "money talks" already in this post. You gave examples from China and Egypt, but I think there're many people even in Sweden who would do the same for (enough) money.
Off course there are sellfish and dishonest people even in the most civilized countries. But If the politics here works well, those people aren't allowed to realize their harmful projects.
It seems that in developing countries like China, Egypt and many others are currently doing the same environmental mistakes they made in Europe in 50s, 60s and 70s.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:30 AM   #11838
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425 m is the deepest point, probably where they will build the tunnel is less.
They will never build the tunnel. Ferry could be overcrowded in summer, but in the rest of the year there's normal traffic...
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:40 AM   #11839
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84

They will never build the tunnel. Ferry could be overcrowded in summer, but in the rest of the year there's normal traffic...
I can't find any project of that tunnel on the net, so it's likely to be an urban legend. Howerver it wouldn't be a bad idea apart for the cost.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:43 AM   #11840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Yes is right. Maybe I expressed bad myself, what I meant is that if you live in a society well educated and civic-minded, these speculators which care only about money don't have a rich soil where grow their dirty business. Otherway round, where there's almost no civic-mind these speculations win on the people. For me Italy is in the middle, not in the level of China or Egypt but far from Sweden, Germany....
Yes, I agree with you (but only because other Swedes/Germans don't get any money ).
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