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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:56 AM   #11841
Satyricon84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I can't find any project of that tunnel on the net, so it's likely to be an urban legend. Howerver it wouldn't be a bad idea apart for the cost.
Not an urban legend, just a dream of Suburbanist If we want to dream talking about tunnel under lakes, what about a tunnel between Konstanz and Meersburg? Technically, it's more possible (max depth 252 meters) and could be more usefull to link these cities than Varrenna with Menaggio, at least for the traffic on that route. Or what about Balaton (max depth 12,5 meters) ?
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Old December 4th, 2011, 07:00 AM   #11842
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Also people against Vajont dam were crircized as nimbies (not with that word, that doesn't exist back then, but the concept was the same) by politicians and contractors interested in the project.
Oh, please, no.

The Vajont dam was a major geological disaster, with many signs of troubles that went ignored.

Quote:
And about asbesto under mountain in Val di Susa: yes, it's the same asbesto that killed thousands (not an exageration, really thousands, but only God know the exact number) of people (workers and people living nearby) during decades in factories and shipyards across Italy.
About uranium: is the cause of well known disasters such Chernobyl and Fukushima, so probably other explanations are useless.
Asbestos are only dangerous when inhaled long time in large quantities by people. There would be no permanent release of asbestos.

As of uranium... it is completely harmless in its ore form. To be radioactive and dangerous, it must be enriched. I have visited a uranium mining site, no big deal. It is not like radioactive waste would be sudden released into the atmosphere.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 07:04 AM   #11843
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In case you didn't know, the boring of Gran Sasso tunnel completely destroyed hydrography of that part of Abruzzo. Some ground water, and even some torrents, have been depleted by more than 95%.
That is part of the price of progress.

What are a bunch of creeks in comparison to a major, fast connection between Abruzzo, Marche and the more populated areas of Lazio? Peanuts.

Today, they have more advanced technology that allow such construction with less hydrological impacts. Just look at excavations of the tunnels of the railway and the new highway (variante di valico) between Firenze and Bologna.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 10:34 AM   #11844
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That is part of the price of progress.

What are a bunch of creeks in comparison to a major, fast connection between Abruzzo, Marche and the more populated areas of Lazio? Peanuts.
I edited myself. It's not worth to reply to these sentences.

EDIT2: The Variante di Valico is so advanced that the boring of one of the tunnels is creating a landslide that is breaking a village apart.

http://www.sapereitalia.it/videos/ri...ese-che-frana/

But according to your "logic", it's village's fault, because it is located where it was not supposed to be.

Last edited by g.spinoza; December 4th, 2011 at 11:45 AM.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 01:18 PM   #11845
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As of uranium... it is completely harmless in its ore form. To be radioactive and dangerous, it must be enriched. I have visited a uranium mining site, no big deal. It is not like radioactive waste would be sudden released into the atmosphere.
Can you look inside your own mouth? I guess not. For the sake of some crazy idea that you like you would dismiss anything that doesnt suit you. Well, thats indeed the same logic some NIMBYs use.

Due to the harmlessness of radioactive natural background in some parts of CZ there is special shielding foil layd over the foundations and ventilating tubes inserted under the newly constructed houses.

I dont really know the story of this tunnel, but perhaps because you have visited a uranium mine, you would also like to live in one. Or work in one every day.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 01:23 PM   #11846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Oh, please, no.

The Vajont dam was a major geological disaster, with many signs of troubles that went ignored.
Absolutely true. But they ignored those signs because of money interests. A left wing journalist complained about risks of that project and was sent in court by contractors for diffamation. She was released because, during the trial, some villagers showed some photos of their homes with walls damaged by the construction works.

And I read that in some uranium mines in the USA many workers mostly from Indian tribes get the cancer because of that.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 01:53 PM   #11847
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Well, thats indeed the same logic some NIMBYs use
PITBYs are worse than NIMBYs, cause at lease NIMBYs try to save the territory surround they backyards, but PITBYs would destroy, asphalt, build everywhere in the name of "progress" the only way for those persons to understand that you can't always build and asphalt is that one day they would be in the same position of the persons they call "NIMBY". Maybe kicked out of their home cause somebody wants to build a parking place up their house or a toxic waste dump next to their garden. Only when they see that with the ridicoulous money they got from an expropiaton they must change way of life or when they lie down on a bed in hospital caused by diseases of water and air pollution, maybe they will understand there are things more important than money or that british biscuits arrives one day earlier on the supermarket's shelves in Milan....
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Old December 4th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #11848
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And I read that in some uranium mines in the USA many workers mostly from Indian tribes get the cancer because of that.
that's right, cause many uranium mines were into indian Navajo reservations. Uranium is not only radioactive as mineral, but also it sends out Radon gas which is radioactive too....
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Old December 4th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #11849
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However sometimes people complain against harmless project, like the second tube of Frejus tunnel that "would increase traffic". Traffic amount would remain the same, only traffic jams (that generate more pollution than fast flowing traffic) would decrease. And the landscape wouldn't be ruined, since it's underground. Only if there are geological problems they're right.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:23 PM   #11850
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Meanwhile in Japan...
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:25 PM   #11851
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That's an expensive crash
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:27 PM   #11852
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I never understood why Japanese news reports always use such rapid and big zooms.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:29 PM   #11853
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Probably to make it more dramatic. The zooms might also go with what the reporter is saying, but I've got no idea what he's saying
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:43 PM   #11854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
PITBYs are worse than NIMBYs
What's a "PITBY"?
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:52 PM   #11855
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What's a "PITBY"?
Put In Their Back Yard
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Old December 4th, 2011, 09:58 PM   #11856
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That's an expensive crash
The cars involved in the crash are more or less 30 supercars among which 2 Ferrari F355, 1 Ferrari F430 Scuderia, 2 Ferrari 360 Modena, 1 Ferrari Testarossa, 1 Lamboghini and 2 Mercedes-Benz (don't know which models but I presume SL). The crash happened on the Chugoku Expressway in Shimonoseki
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Old December 4th, 2011, 10:06 PM   #11857
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I never understood why Japanese news reports always use such rapid and big zooms.
The cameras just played a lot of Pokemon when they were younger...
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Old December 4th, 2011, 10:31 PM   #11858
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Put In Their Back Yard
We could also mention the NISOGBY, Not In Some Other Guy's BackYard: all those BANANAs who have nothing to do with a project but are always ready to protest, if their mothers pay them the ticket to go there

My 2 €c about € rail and road projects, given that I work in the freight rail industry and I have a decent experience about effective rail transport:
- it is true that the Frejus line is not saturated, but the aim of building a new tunnel in the Alps is often to lower the max altitude of the line, with major benefits in energy consumption and in terms of more simple and cheap rail operations (less locomotives for pass routes, more interoperability);
- I'm absolutely not a BAEENE, I believe that every project must prove its cost effectiveness and, in general, not to be a nonsense: I'm a plain opposer of the idiotic HSL Venice-Trieste project, since the present line is a damn flat straight line half empty;
- I have a passion for cars, I love driving, and still I think we must heavily improve public transports. The car is a highly inefficient way of transport, and today is mostly used due to the laziness of people. Total travel indipendence costs a lot.
- I think that too often people demands for transport projects bigger than what they can actually spend: we can still build efficient road and railways even if they're not 130 km/h highways or 300 km/h HSLs. In most cases 2+2 110 km/h roads and 200-230 km/h railways can give GREAT performances if well designed, and cost many times less.
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Old December 4th, 2011, 11:03 PM   #11859
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Tunnels under lakes, straits etc, aren't always built under the bottom of it, but can also built in the form of some waterproofed (hydroisolated) concrete tube in the water, supported by piers as an underwater bridge or something... It doesn't make it any cheaper anyway, but is better than going more than 400 meters down
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Old December 5th, 2011, 10:27 AM   #11860
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