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Old October 4th, 2012, 12:12 PM   #16221
italystf
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84 View Post
Milan urban area is 4.3 millions, a part of the Milan metropolitan area that has over 9 millions inhabitants, not 3 as you said (that's the Milano province only). About the useless Monza & Brianza province you said, I should remember you that is the 21st on 110 for number of inhabitants (more than Basilicata and Molise regions together) and before its creation, we just lived in the shadow of Milan. Useless are maybe all the "chairs" occupied by councillors, but this is a problem in every province
It's not the size that made a province useful or not but it's its geographical and cultural identity. Some provinces are very populated (such Milan, Rome, Naples, Turin,...) but their territory is part of the same metropolitan area with a particular identity together so they don't need to be split. There is no need to split the Naples, Rome or Turin metro area by creating let's say the provinces of Giugliano in Campania, Ciampino or Moncalieri. And Milan isn't much different. On the other hand, some small provinces such Sondrio, Isernia or Trieste are OK to keep because they give autonomy to an area with his own identity.

That 9 millions in Milan metro area is highly exagerated IMHO. This is the population of the whole Lombardy. It's difficult to think about Mantova countryside or Alps between Bormio and Livigno as part of Milan metro area. Or maybe you also include western Piedmont or even Canton Ticino in Milan metro area? With this reasonement the whole Pianura Padana can be a metro area ince it's made by many cities and villages close and integrated together.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 12:17 PM   #16222
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What is the population of Randstad (metropolitan area)?

Chris?
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Old October 4th, 2012, 12:30 PM   #16223
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Depends on definition. Usually 7 - 7.5 million is quoted, but I've also seen up to 10 million.

The Randstad (edge city) is not formally defined.

It's important to understand that a metropolitan area is not the same as an urban area. A metropolitan area is more like a job market. People from outside the urbanized area may commute to the metro area (as is the case with the Randstad metro area, which is not a continuous urban area).
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Old October 4th, 2012, 12:43 PM   #16224
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It's getting pretty close though. Amsterdam-Haarlem-Leiden-the Hague-Delft-Rotterdam is almost entirely connected, with a few green gaps. Utrecht seems to be the odd one out.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #16225
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There are only narrow corridors that are nearly continuously urbanized, which is quite unlike urban areas like London or Paris, or the polycentric Ruhr Area.

These urbanized corridors are characteristic for the Randstad metro area. Usually a string of expanded cities and towns, but not a single, massive urbanized region. If you go from Dordrecht to Zaandam it's mostly urbanized, while if you go from Den Haag to Amersfoort, you'll find many undeveloped areas.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 12:52 PM   #16226
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Same as in London, which is a mishmash of smaller and bigger towns. And even within the M25 and in between London borough's there are undeveloped areas. The really London is the City of London, which is small and scarcely populated.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 01:18 PM   #16227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
It's not the size that made a province useful or not but it's its geographical and cultural identity. Some provinces are very populated (such Milan, Rome, Naples, Turin,...) but their territory is part of the same metropolitan area with a particular identity together so they don't need to be split.
Also you should know that Monza (and all comuni under its province) belongs to that geographical area called Brianza, an area with own dialects, identity, culture that despite to be bordering with Milan, has very few to do with it. To make you understand better, is like to say Trieste is in Friuli


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That 9 millions in Milan metro area is highly exagerated IMHO. This is the population of the whole Lombardy. It's difficult to think about Mantova countryside or Alps between Bormio and Livigno as part of Milan metro area. Or maybe you also include western Piedmont or even Canton Ticino in Milan metro area? With this reasonement the whole Pianura Padana can be a metro area ince it's made by many cities and villages close and integrated together.
If you have something to bemoan about this reasonament, also bemoan with OECD not with me. Btw, Novara is only 50 km far from Milano...
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Secondo l'OCSE, essa comprende le province di Milano, Bergamo, Como, Lecco, Lodi, Monza e Brianza, Pavia, Varese e la piemontese provincia di Novara e con una popolazione di più di 9 milioni di abitanti su una superficie di circa 12.000 km
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Old October 4th, 2012, 01:26 PM   #16228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK
Same as in London, which is a mishmash of smaller and bigger towns. And even within the M25 and in between London borough's there are undeveloped areas. The really London is the City of London, which is small and scarcely populated.
London proper is the so called "Greater London" that has a population of 8,2 millions. The metro area has 13 millions. The City has only 7400 people and it's the 2nd least populated UK district after Scilly Isles.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 01:38 PM   #16229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84
Also you should know that Monza (and all comuni under its province) belongs to that geographical area called Brianza, an area with own dialects, identity, culture that despite to be bordering with Milan, has very few to do with it. To make you understand better, is like to say Trieste is in Friuli
Ok, Brianza is big and has a cultural identity but what about Barletta - Andria - Trani? I have a friend from Bisceglie and they speak the same dialect of Bari (while other areas of Apulia such Gargano and Salento are very different, like Trieste and Friuli). Or the new 4 Sardinian province, that almost no Italian know (Sardinia has less than 2 millions people and 8 provinces).

About Friuli Venezia Giulia I would abolish the Gorizia province and split it between Udine and Trieste. Gorizia province has not a cultural identity. Some parts (Gorizia area) are more related to Friuli and speak Friulan while the Bisiacaria (Monfalcone area) is more similar to Trieste concerning the dialect.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 01:59 PM   #16230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Ok, Brianza is big and has a cultural identity but what about Barletta - Andria - Trani? I have a friend from Bisceglie and they speak the same dialect of Bari (while other areas of Apulia such Gargano and Salento are very different, like Trieste and Friuli). Or the new 4 Sardinian province, that almost no Italian know (Sardinia has less than 2 millions people and 8 provinces)
I have never been there so I don't know nothing about this besides the fact that they exists. I just can speak about Monza & Brianza cause I live there

Quote:
About Friuli Venezia Giulia I would abolish the Gorizia province and split it between Udine and Trieste. Gorizia province has not a cultural identity. Some parts (Gorizia area) are more related to Friuli and speak Friulan while the Bisiacaria (Monfalcone area) is more similar to Trieste concerning the dialect.
Provinces are too many, this is a fact. But a province doesn't work only about cultural identity. A province manages for example the employment exchange, the manage the living enviroment, roads, local transports, culture.... to put together little provinces to bigger one could happen that the little city that lost own independence lives in the shadow of the bigger one cause is not able to manage own resources alone. Exactly as Milan did with Monza.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 02:13 PM   #16231
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84
I have never been there so I don't know nothing about this besides the fact that they exists. I just can speak about Monza & Brianza cause I live there

Provinces are too many, this is a fact. But a province doesn't work only about cultural identity. A province manages for example the employment exchange, the manage the living enviroment, roads, local transports, culture.... to put together little provinces to bigger one could happen that the little city that lost own independence lives in the shadow of the bigger one cause is not able to manage own resources alone. Exactly as Milan did with Monza.
Too many provinces and municipalities are costly. We all pay employees in the public administration. And in Italy many employees don't mean better services but just more waste. We can give a new province to every 30k town who wants one or a municipality to every 1k or less village.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #16232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84
I have never been there so I don't know nothing about this besides the fact that they exists. I just can speak about Monza & Brianza cause I live there

Provinces are too many, this is a fact. But a province doesn't work only about cultural identity. A province manages for example the employment exchange, the manage the living enviroment, roads, local transports, culture.... to put together little provinces to bigger one could happen that the little city that lost own independence lives in the shadow of the bigger one cause is not able to manage own resources alone. Exactly as Milan did with Monza.
Too many provinces and municipalities are costly. We all pay employees in the public administration. And in Italy many employees don't mean better services but just more waste. We can't give a new province to every 30k town who wants one or a municipality to every 1k or less village.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #16233
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Too many provinces and municipalities are costly. We all pay employees in the public administration. And in Italy many employees don't mean better services but just more waste. We can't give a new province to every 30k town who wants one or a municipality to every 1k or less village.
Infact as I said yesterday, there are too many councillors and lazy employees to work in province. And this is the real problem. To cut the number of province doesn't solve the problem: somewhere all those employees must be reallocate and the State must do it since they are all statal workers (and we know how difficult is to fire a statal work) and you just risk to make people lose entire days in public offices if these are reduced too. In my opinion, changes must be done from the head, starting from those thieves in the parliament in Rome. Then you can may think to renovate the whole political structure, not otherway round starting from the bottom (comune and province. This doesn't solve anything
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Old October 4th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #16234
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City car tax in Germany? It seems die Grünen want it, they say to make money for street repairs, to calm the noise down, to make more parking spaces, and to calm the traffic so that also locals can drive without stress.

Just heard it in the radio and googled the thing:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/...h/7213690.html

The few comments on the article are interesting.
If you ask me, I think politicians have gone mad...
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Old October 4th, 2012, 03:33 PM   #16235
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Originally Posted by Satyricon84

... in Rome.
I like that. It's like reading an Asterix comic.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 04:19 PM   #16236
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Wait, Suburbanist is the Stig, or you are?
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Old October 4th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #16237
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I like that. It's like reading an Asterix comic.
Do you Asterix comics? You surprise me, you reading skills are more of what I imagined...
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Old October 4th, 2012, 05:03 PM   #16238
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Very educational. I read it when I've finished reading the Sunday Times.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #16239
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Wait, Suburbanist is the Stig, or you are?
Suburbanist, I think he's a sort of mythical character he's probably the son of God Market the Almighty and Margaret Thatcher



Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
City car tax in Germany? It seems die Grünen want it, they say to make money for street repairs, to calm the noise down, to make more parking spaces, and to calm the traffic so that also locals can drive without stress.

Just heard it in the radio and googled the thing:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/...h/7213690.html

The few comments on the article are interesting.
If you ask me, I think politicians have gone mad...
I'm ok with that. If this means the death of the damn Plakette
But I'm pretty sure this tax would just join the existing mess...
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Old October 4th, 2012, 06:17 PM   #16240
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I'm ok with that. If this means the death of the damn Plakette
But I'm pretty sure this tax would just join the existing mess...
Now that in München began the new rule that only green Plaketten are allowed?
But how can this be good? If I travel to a city, as a tourist, or to visit someone, I don't want to pay freaking 6€ every time I enter the city. At least you pay the Plakette ones.
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