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Old October 4th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #16241
Wilhem275
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I rarely enter German city centers with a motor vehicle, but when I do that's for sure with an old one that'll never get even a black Plakette...


Let's put apart my problem: the real point is pollution charge vs. congestion charge.
Most pollution charge/limit systems had not proved to provide the expected results (German Plakette, Milan's Ecopass). Congestion charge systems SEEM to provide better results in terms of quality of life improvement.

What is most important? Leaving older vehicles out, limiting the number of vehicles in the city, or either or neither is?
My opinion is that the number of vehicles is the problem, since my main concern is the space they need (both to move and to stay parked). Then comes the air pollution issue, but my daily experience says that even the newest engines still generate a lot of smoke, so... let's just put all of them out.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #16242
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I can't just help finding that "there is not enough money to maintain the roads" funny. Motorists pay more than enough taxes to cover every aspect, but it all ends up in the big treasury.

The lack of funding is not because motorists do not pay enough taxes, but because there is not enough money allocated to road infrastructure by politicians. Those politicians wanting yet another tax should look at themselves instead of immediately turning to the motorists to demand more money.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #16243
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
Now that in München began the new rule that only green Plaketten are allowed?
But how can this be good? If I travel to a city, as a tourist, or to visit someone, I don't want to pay freaking 6€ every time I enter the city. At least you pay the Plakette ones.
The Umweltplakette is just a joke.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #16244
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Yep
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Old October 4th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #16245
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Regardless of what they do, they should just adopt a single protocol.

Ideally, plate-recognition based payment, with some system that allow foreign drivers to pay themselves online within couple weeks of using the tolls or facing administrative surcharges.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 10:03 PM   #16246
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And where the hell should someone pay the stupid city toll?
If I spontaneous decide to visit, I don't know, Dresden, must I stop somewhere and pay the stupid tax?
Is there not enough I pay 1200 euros insurance per year, a lot of taxes in the gas price, shitload of taxes from my salary. Still it's not enough.
And what about the city I live, must I pay there too for entering after going home from work? Since technically I work in Gaimersheim Gewerbegebiet, which is right near the city border.

@Wilhelm275: You said you rarely enter German city centers by car, but in the article there's nothing about city centers, it's about the whole city, or so I understood it.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 10:18 PM   #16247
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Quote:
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And what about the city I live, must I pay there too for entering after going home from work?
This is what residents in the centre of Milan have and had to do. Paying from 2 to 10€ according to the emissions of their cars with previous right wing administration, 5€ whatever car you had (plus increasing of 50% the ticket for public transports) with left wing administration to go back home. Not daily, but everytime you passed under the cameras. This shit was suspended for two months, but since 2 weeks restarted
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Old October 4th, 2012, 10:27 PM   #16248
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Meanwhile in Germany...
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Old October 4th, 2012, 10:28 PM   #16249
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hahaha

I thought it was a crash at first, but then I noticed
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Old October 4th, 2012, 10:29 PM   #16250
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Did he get a ticket for impersonating a police car?
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Old October 4th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #16251
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I disagree with these city tolls.

I'm just saying that if a country wants to have non-manned tolls, its better to at least have some automated system, payable online.

I would support city tolls of gas and diesel were taxed only at regular VAT rates, which would essentially reduce their prices by 45-55% in Western European countries.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 11:15 PM   #16252
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Quote:
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I would support city tolls of gas and diesel were taxed only at regular VAT rates, which would essentially reduce their prices by 45-55% in Western European countries.
Yes, just like vehicle miles tax. Motoring is overtaxed by taxes on top of taxes. Heck, in the Netherlands you even pay VAT (sales tax) over the excise duty.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 11:25 PM   #16253
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Politicians have gone mad.
Maybe it's time to shove them a boot in the ass.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 12:47 AM   #16254
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:04 AM   #16255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yes, just like vehicle miles tax. Motoring is overtaxed by taxes on top of taxes. Heck, in the Netherlands you even pay VAT (sales tax) over the excise duty.
That is how the VAT works: it is always based on the final consumer price tag, regardless if the VATless price contains tax components or not.

Most probably it contains, direct or indirect ones. If you buy tomatos, there are several tax components embedded: the income cost of the people in the supermarket and on the tomato fiels, the fuel tax for the truck to carry the tomatos, the company tax of the supermarket, etc. You pay VAT over all these.

It would be an utterly complex task to avoid taxes on top of taxes. The total money is the key, not the calculation method: I would not see much difference on paying 12.30 eur as 10 eur excise duty plus 2.30 eur VAT over the excise duty or paying 12.30 eur VAT-fee excise tax. (I would not expect the level of the excise tax to remain intact if the taxation method changed.)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #16256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx
Politicians have gone mad.
Maybe it's time to shove them a boot in the ass.
That's how it works in a democracy. If you're not happy with policies, you send them home during election time.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:50 AM   #16257
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That's how it works in a democracy. If you're not happy with policies, you send them home during election time.
What if they're all the same?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #16258
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They don't tell you about these policies before elections...
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:04 AM   #16259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza

What if they're all the same?
Depends in which country you're in I guess. In the Netherlands there are so many political parties, ranging from far right to far left, and opinions are so divided, that governments are being formed based on coalitions and compromises.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:05 AM   #16260
g.spinoza
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They don't tell you about these policies before elections...
At least in Italy, politicians are the same for decades. We voted for left-wing partied 10 years ago: disaster. We voted for right-wing parties 5 years ago: disaster. Now the same left-wing and right-wing politicians run for elections: who are we supposed to vote for?
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