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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:23 AM   #16261
Road_UK
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In the Netherlands there is a party for everything. Party for Animal Welfare is doing rather well, but there is also this fundamentalist Christian party, that favours a complete shutdown of airport's and trainstations on Sunday's. Even their website is offline on Sunday. And there used to be a party for pedophiles, that called for the age of consent to be lowered to 12, and make it lawful to walk around naked. But use a towel when sitting down on public benches at stations or in parks for hygienic reasons. Something for everybody.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #16262
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In the Netherlands there is a party for everything. Party for Animal Welfare is doing rather well, but there is also this fundamentalist Christian party, that favours a complete shutdown of airport's and trainstations on Sunday's. Even their website is offline on Sunday. And there used to be a party for pedophiles, that called for the age of consent to be lowered to 12, and make it lawful to walk around naked. But use a towel when sitting down on public benches at stations or in parks for hygienic reasons. Something for everybody.
In Italy too, but in the current electoral system small parties cannot get to the Parliament, so most people won't vote for them thinking that their vote is "wasted".
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:57 AM   #16263
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Significant fragmentation of the political landscape is also not ideal. We had a surprise election outcome in September (two parties gaining a majority together) but before that only 3 - 5 party coalitions seemed possible.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 12:13 PM   #16264
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A left-centre right coalition. A lot of compromising to be done...
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Old October 5th, 2012, 12:16 PM   #16265
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Better than extremes on both the left and right.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 12:18 PM   #16266
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Better than extremes on both the left and right.
It depends. I prefer extremes.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 12:32 PM   #16267
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Quote:
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They don't tell you about these policies before elections...
I like the Swiss system where they have referendums for everything, that's real democracy, not a bunch of politicians who do whatever they want for 5 or 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Road_UK
there is also this fundamentalist Christian party, that favours a complete shutdown of airport's and trainstations on Sunday's. Even their website is offline on Sunday. And there used to be a party for pedophiles, that called for the age of consent to be lowered to 12, and make it lawful to walk around naked. But use a towel when sitting down on public benches at stations or in parks for hygienic reasons. Something for everybody.
OMG! Reading such things make me thinking Italian politics suck less than I though, at least we never had such crazy parties.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #16268
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I like the Swiss system where they have referendums for everything, that's real democracy, not a bunch of politicians who do whatever they want for 5 or 10 years.
That system works only on small-medium scales. You can't organize referenda for everything, they cost sh*tloads of money and you risk a very steep declining rate of participation.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 12:44 PM   #16269
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Swiss referendums already often have low turnouts. Sometimes less than 20% of the voters can reject a plan. I don't like referendums. Complex decisions should be made by experts, not civilians with no knowledge on the matter.

Referendums are just a tool for people who are against something. You don't need an absolute majority to reject something since a large silent proportion of the voters don't care and doesn't vote on the matter. People who are against something have a much stronger incentive to go and vote than people who are not against something but don't find it important enough to vote.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #16270
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That's how it works in a democracy. If you're not happy with policies, you send them home during election time.
Perhaps "shoving them a boot in the ass" was a metaphor for sending them home at election time....
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #16271
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That system works only on small-medium scales. You can't organize referenda for everything, they cost sh*tloads of money and you risk a very steep declining rate of participation.
This is not true in the electronic age.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:42 PM   #16272
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This is not true in the electronic age.
If they were to introduce electronic vote, I'd never vote again.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:49 PM   #16273
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Swiss referendums already often have low turnouts. Sometimes less than 20% of the voters can reject a plan. I don't like referendums. Complex decisions should be made by experts, not civilians with no knowledge on the matter.

Referendums are just a tool for people who are against something. You don't need an absolute majority to reject something since a large silent proportion of the voters don't care and doesn't vote on the matter. People who are against something have a much stronger incentive to go and vote than people who are not against something but don't find it important enough to vote.
Experts should be able to explain their oppinions to the broad public and make complex matters understandable to a layman. The population should then decide. Anyway, who decides who is a expert and who is not? If public can decide who is the expert, it can also decide whether the expert and what he is talking about is making sense or not.

If there are problems so complex that their effects can't be explained to the broad public, they are probably wrongly understood and prone to misuse anyway.

The reasons for so low turnoevers is verly low political awarness of the population. Its certainly something that can be improved. E.g. you could start with educational programs in the primary and secondary schools on that matter. You could also motivate participations in the referendas.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:49 PM   #16274
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That system works only on small-medium scales. You can't organize referenda for everything, they cost sh*tloads of money and you risk a very steep declining rate of participation.
Not necessarily: every election or referendum doesn't have to be a separate trip to the polls.

Here's what we were voting on in Philadelphia in the 2010 primary (the most recent sample ballot I could find on line in two minutes). The "Questions" on the right are referenda.

http://www.seventy.org/Downloads/Sam...y_2010/182.pdf

I'm not necessarily endorsing the direct-vote-on-everything approach, though....
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #16275
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If they were to introduce electronic vote, I'd never vote again.
Why is that?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:52 PM   #16276
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Why is that?
Are you serious? They can already mess with paper votes, although it is difficult to do. If we were to use electronic vote, it would be a carte blanche for them to cheat as they please. No way, man.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #16277
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Are you serious? They can already mess with paper votes, although it is difficult to do. If we were to use electronic vote, it would be a carte blanche for them to cheat as they please. No way, man.
There absolutely needs to be a "paper trail" - a hard copy that can be referred to if a recount is needed. But electronic voting machines can produce that. That said, I've heard of places that were introducing electronic voting a decade ago that have changed their minds since....
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Old October 5th, 2012, 02:59 PM   #16278
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Are you serious? They can already mess with paper votes, although it is difficult to do. If we were to use electronic vote, it would be a carte blanche for them to cheat as they please. No way, man.
Do you use electronic banking? This is not question of technology, its a question of trust in the society.

No system is 100 % foolproof I agree on that. But, for one I think the safety measures can be so strong that it would be very hard and demanding to fake the results.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:02 PM   #16279
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Depends in which country you're in I guess. In the Netherlands there are so many political parties, ranging from far right to far left, and opinions are so divided, that governments are being formed based on coalitions and compromises.
They may have different programs, but the most imprtant think about any polititian is the moral character and work ethic. Its not really that easy to find this out before hand. Afterwards its bit too late.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #16280
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
There absolutely needs to be a "paper trail" - a hard copy that can be referred to if a recount is needed. But electronic voting machines can produce that. That said, I've heard of places that were introducing electronic voting a decade ago that have changed their minds since....
How can you be sure that a paper trail produced by voting machine is right? Only the machine maker knows. And what if it has an agenda?

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Do you use electronic banking?
No. I don't even have a credit card, only a rechargeable one, so I wouldn't lose my money if something goes wrong.

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This is not question of technology, its a question of trust in the society.
It IS a question of technology, however no, I have no trust in society.

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No system is 100 % foolproof I agree on that. But, for one I think the safety measures can be so strong that it would be very hard and demanding to fake the results.
Electronic devices can be easily hacked. What strong measures are you thinking of, if crackers can penetrate the White House and the Pentagon archives?
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