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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #16281
Surel
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
There absolutely needs to be a "paper trail" - a hard copy that can be referred to if a recount is needed. But electronic voting machines can produce that. That said, I've heard of places that were introducing electronic voting a decade ago that have changed their minds since....
I am not talking voting machines... thats stone age. We have the ******* internet now in every mobile phone. Lets use it somehow.

Storing the records is the least of my concern. Heck, if you really needed to, you could move the whole agenda online, even the identity checkups by commissions. But yeah, that would become perhaps prohibitively expensive.

The electronic age will bring a request on a foolproof electronic identity anyway. Something like and electronic ID that would need to scan your fingerprint or retina and some password to authorize you could be quite ok solution for now.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #16282
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We have the ******* internet now in every mobile phone. Lets use it somehow.
Which, as we know, is the land of enforced rules and certified identities.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:12 PM   #16283
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No. I don't even have a credit card, only a rechargeable one, so I wouldn't lose my money if something goes wrong.
What do you mean if anything goes wrong?

if your bank goes bust?
Ok you are protected if you have your money stored under your mattrace.

If the electronic banking goes bust?
Well your paper money became worthless as well.


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Electronic devices can be easily hacked. What strong measures are you thinking of, if crackers can penetrate the White House and the Pentagon archives?
But at least you know the system was hacked right? I assure you, where there is will, there is a way. On both sides. It depends on which side there is more will... .
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #16284
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What do you mean if anything goes wrong?

if your bank goes bust?
Ok you are protected if you have your money stored under your mattrace.

If the electronic banking goes bust?
Well your paper money become worthless as well.
Have you ever heard of man-in-the-middle attacks, credit card numbers theft and such?

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But at least you know the system was hacked right? I assure you, where there is will, there is a way. On both sides. It depends on which side there is more will... .
Let's say I want, hypothetically, GW Bush elected, and I build and program voting machines, or the official software used on the internet to vote. I can very easily write my code to get GW Bush elected. The software I provide will essentially be a black box and only I would know what it does exactly. But apart from malicious agendas, it could simply be buggy.

With traditional voting, if I want Bush elected, I have to actively bribe a huge amount of population, or at least the scrutineers.

Last edited by g.spinoza; October 5th, 2012 at 03:24 PM.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #16285
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Have you ever heard of man-in-the-middle attacks, credit card numbers theft and such?
But I'm guessing you do have a debit card, where you receive your salary?
I have one, but didn't activate the overdraft feature, so I can never go under 0€, and I also have a prepaid credit card for online payment, that I can manually charge from the debit account, using online banking or at the bank and this also never goes under 0€.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #16286
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I do, and it scares the hell out of me. When possible I always prefer having real money, not virtual electronic one. Of course having paper money with me is risky too, but it's a risk I'm more prepared to face.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:38 PM   #16287
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But I'm guessing you do have a debit card, where you receive your salary?
I have one, but didn't activate the overdraft feature, so I can never go under 0€, and I also have a prepaid credit card for online payment, that I can manually charge from the debit account, using online banking or at the bank and this also never goes under 0€.
I thought he said, he doesn't use electronic banking.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:40 PM   #16288
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How can you be sure that a paper trail produced by voting machine is right? Only the machine maker knows. And what if it has an agenda?

....
You're more cynical than I am. (Lots of people are....)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #16289
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You're more cynical than I am. (Lots of people are....)
"Hope for the best. Expect the worst. Settle for something in between".
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:45 PM   #16290
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I am not talking voting machines... thats stone age. We have the ******* internet now in every mobile phone. Lets use it somehow.

Storing the records is the least of my concern. Heck, if you really needed to, you could move the whole agenda online, even the identity checkups by commissions. But yeah, that would become perhaps prohibitively expensive.

The electronic age will bring a request on a foolproof electronic identity anyway. Something like and electronic ID that would need to scan your fingerprint or retina and some password to authorize you could be quite ok solution for now.
And elderly or poor people who don't have the ******* Internet in every mobile phone*, or don't have mobile phones for that matter? We'll just let them not vote?

*Actually, I chose not to have the Internet on my phone. I don't need to be connected 24/7....

And there's been major controversy over here about a new enthusiasm on the part of...a certain party...for voter ID laws, but don't get me started.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:48 PM   #16291
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Of course having paper money with me is risky too, but it's a risk I'm more prepared to face.
You shouldn't be a Monti's fan too also, since he wanted the abolition of paper money. I have your same mind concerning this point; to clone a credit card pretty easy and I prefere to use it only if necessary (rent a car, book a flight...)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:49 PM   #16292
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And there's been major controversy over here about a new enthusiasm on the part of...a certain party...for voter ID laws, but don't get me started.
I don't get all the fuss about showing ID to vote. You need to show your ID for pretty much anything. In the Netherlands you need to show your ID to vote.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #16293
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You shouldn't be a Monti's fan too also, since he wanted the abolition of paper money.
I am no politician fan. I have to admit that, from an international point of view, Monti's better than his predecessor. But even a wood stick would be.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:55 PM   #16294
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Estonia has had electronic voting since 2005. In the 2011 parliamentary elections, roughly 25% of participants gave their vote over the Internet (including I). Very few people have a problem with that over here. Our banking is also very much online-based - 99.3% of money transactions withing Estonia are made online.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #16295
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I do, and it scares the hell out of me. When possible I always prefer having real money, not virtual electronic one. Of course having paper money with me is risky too, but it's a risk I'm more prepared to face.
There are just too high transaction costs for not using electronic banking. The same goes with the voting. We as a society lose huge opportunity by limiting the voting to few events in a few years due to the huge transaction costs of such events.


You coudl desing a system in a such way, that you would be able to see your votes. You could also easily check the results in your voting districts. And you could provide with check ups of the individual voting in the voting districts if needed.

Another very simple solution, that would however be not favorable, is to not use anonymous voting. You could vote in the facebook manner, e.g.



The only difference between electronic and paper voting that is of any substance is the identity check by the voting commission. The voting commission has a list of all voters and check against it the incoming voters.

What can be faked here when the electronic voting is done:

1) Your vote can be changed.
2) Actually not voting person can be seen as voting.
3) The list can be inflated by in reality non existent voters.
4) The total sum of votes can be changed not corresponding to reality, while the individual votes would be kept in tact. (change somewhere in the middle)

1 and 2) simple feedback check would prevent this. Everyone would have access of its voting history easily checking whether something went wrong.

3) Real problem. How can you check if someone exists or not. You could check against the citizen register. But again, you can say the citizen register can be faked. The easiest thing you can do is make a public list of all people that voted available. So by that you at least ge the idea of the amount of voters and can ponder whether it relates to the possible reality.

4) Could be checked quite easily, the results from the local to the higher districts would be available online to be checked. It would be easy to find out on what level the result changed.

So far I can see only the problem with the ghost voters that don't exist. This is not a problem in small community where everyone knows everyone though. In the bigger districts this would need some better solution I can't think of right now.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #16296
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Estonia has had electronic voting since 2005. In the 2011 parliamentary elections, roughly 25% of participants gave their vote over the Internet (including I). Very few people have a problem with that over here.
Wait until you elect an avatar, and we'll discuss again
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #16297
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EDIT: This is for Chris, post #16293

Until recently, it was unconstitutional to require more than a signature. (When you get to your polling place, you give them your name, they look up your record, you sign it...) The Supreme Court changed its mind about that a few years back. Requiring an ID may not seem like a big deal in principle, but bear in mind we don't have a national ID card like many if not most European countries do, so most people use their driver's license for that sort of thing. So suddenly requiring an ID to vote puts certain people, disproportionately in certain segments of the population, in the position of having to get one, or the substitute "non-driver ID" that some states offer for, well, people who don't drive and need IDs.

The Republican Party in Pennsylvania passed an ID requirement a few months ago. They claimed they were combating fraud, but there's no evidence of fraud. They knew exactly what they were doing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8

A judge three days ago didn't overturn the law but said it couldn't come into effect for this election because the state has not proved that it will be able to get IDs to everyone on time (there've been horror stories about hours-long lines at the Department of Motor Vehicles. I feel sorry for people whose driver's licenses happen to be expring now.)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #16298
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
s.

What can be faked here when the electronic voting is done:

1) Your vote can be changed.
2) Actually not voting person can be seen as voting.
3) The list can be inflated by in reality non existent voters.
4) The total sum of votes can be changed not corresponding to reality, while the individual votes would be kept in tact. (change somewhere in the middle)

1 and 2) simple feedback check would prevent this. Everyone would have access of its voting history easily checking whether something went wrong.
So the system just stores two lists, the one with your real vote, and the other one with the vote changed according to the machine maker's agenda. When you interrogate the system it will show the real vote; for other purposes, including electing people, it will use the changed one. Piece of cake.
Besides, vote is secret. How can you prevent someone to steal your identification and access your voter's history?

Last edited by g.spinoza; October 5th, 2012 at 04:08 PM.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #16299
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And elderly or poor people who don't have the ******* Internet in every mobile phone*, or don't have mobile phones for that matter? We'll just let them not vote?

*Actually, I chose not to have the Internet on my phone. I don't need to be connected 24/7....

And there's been major controversy over here about a new enthusiasm on the part of...a certain party...for voter ID laws, but don't get me started.
Well I am sure that in the US you can find your own solution for your ID problem.... .

mobile internet... that was a figure of speech. But ok, sooner or later elderly people without "mobile internet" will die out. Note: another figure of speech :O. Using mobile internet will become as normal as using clothes or knowing how to read. Not knowing something is not a benefit. You would have to pay the price for that matter and travel to the few places where there would be a voting assistence.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #16300
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Estonia has had electronic voting since 2005. In the 2011 parliamentary elections, roughly 25% of participants gave their vote over the Internet (including I). Very few people have a problem with that over here. Our banking is also very much online-based - 99.3% of money transactions withing Estonia are made online.
yeah I know it. Its nice to see that someone actually makes some progress.
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