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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #16301
Rebasepoiss
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When talking about money, it's an abstract concept anyway that's based on trust. Cash is still a piece of paper that's worth nothing if people don't put their trust in it. I'm pretty sure there are people in the world that have decided to keep their savings in gold because they don't trust money. I personally see no difference between electronic money and cash, I probably even trust electronic money more because it's less fragile.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #16302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Well I am sure that in the US you can find your own solution for your ID problem.... .

mobile internet... that was a figure of speech. But ok, sooner or later elderly people without "mobile internet" will die out. Note: another figure of speech :O. Using mobile internet will become as normal as using clothes or knowing how to read. Not knowing something is not a benefit. You would have to pay the price for that matter and travel to the few places where there would be a voting assistence.
In the segregated South, that sort of thing was called a "poll tax." Which is why we're extremely sensitive to this kind of thing. (In fact, the cost of getting the ID - particularly if there's a direct fee for it, but also taking a day off of work to spend in line, traveling to the nearest DMV office... - was a big part of the legal argument. Voting is too fundamental a right to be hampered by obstacles like having to pay for ID.)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #16303
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Yes but in the US you have to be registered to vote. So you have to go... I don't know where, some place when you get registered, and spend time, take a day off, possibly spend money... isn't that the same thing?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:18 PM   #16304
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So the system just stores two lists, the one with your real vote, and the other one with the vote changed accord to the machine maker's agenda. When you interrogate the system it will show the real vote; for other purposes, including electing people, it will use the changed one. Piece of cake.
Besides, vote is secret. How can you prevent someone to steal your identification and access your voter's history?
Lets see. Imagine that someone then checks up the results in a district. All people send in the results that it shows on the real list. Then this is checked up with the list that is used for the results (the faked list). If there would be a problem it would be seen right away.

How about having a broad enough commission that would overlook the system design (but commission of experts in the field of course, also people with moral credit). Commission that would represent the whole society. That would be one safety feature in the desing of such a system. You would have to bribe them all.


The whole agrument is about that you say, paper votes are harder to fake, because the faking is more costly. I think that you can design such an electronic system, where the faking would be the same costly, but the whole system would operate with lower cost than the paper voting.

interesting debate, I am off for now
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #16305
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EDIT: For Spinoza, two posts back....

It's very easy to register. A month before an election, if you're out and about enough, you'll probably be asked by a nice volunteer for one of the parties or other organizations whether you're registered. If you're not, they have the form. You fill it out and give it to them, and they are obligated by law to turn it in for you.

When I moved in 2008 (a month before the primary), I actually changed my address as I was moving - a volunteer happened to be working the corner of my street (in a quiet area on a Sunday morning, yet) and asked if I was registered; I said "yes, but I'm moving into this block literally today; do you have a change-of-address form?" He did; I sat down and filled it out; done.

As far as getting to the polling place; they're extremely thick on the ground; in a city the size of Philadelphia it's not a question of going to City Hall. I vote in the lobby of an apartment building. I've heard of large apartment buildings that have their own polling places just for their residents. There's one at the parish hall of a church across the street from me but for some reason I'm not assigned there.

At any rate, people who are too unwell to get out, or who will be away, can apply for an "absentee ballot," fill it out at home and mail it in. (I don't know if it's "Business Reply Mail," which you don't have to stamp because the recipient pays for it. :-) )

More and more states are offering "early voting" - some states are already voting for this election - if Election Day is inconvenient for you. (In that instance, you won't have a bunch of polling places all over town, you'll have to go to the county board of elections or whatever.) And more and more states aren't requiring you to give a reason (illness, travel...) for the absentee ballot. Pennsylvania's still a bit old-fashioned in that respect: voting is on Election Day only and absentee ballots may need a justification (that I'm not sure about).
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:23 PM   #16306
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Wait, how do you identify yourself without an ID?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #16307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Lets see. Imagine that someone then checks up the results in a district. All people send in the results that it shows on the real list. Then this is checked up with the list that is used for the results (the faked list). If there would be a problem it would be seen right away.
So you basically have to vote two times, the second of which on an open unsecured line. What if you deliberately change the second time your vote? What if someone maliciously changes it as you send it? What if you have better things to do than re-vote a second time just to prove that the first one was right?
It seems to me an unnecessary complication. Pencil and paper, as good as it gets.

Quote:
How about having a broad enough commission that would overlook the system design (but commission of experts in the field of course, also people with moral credit).
As you said, who gives them moral credit? Experts by judgment of whom?

Quote:
The whole agrument is about that you say, paper votes are harder to fake, because the faking is more costly. I think that you can design such a electronic system, where the faking would be seemingly costly, but the whole system would operate with lower cost than the paper voting.
I don't think so. And for sure I'm not gonna change my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
EDIT: For Spinoza, two posts back....

It's very easy to register. [...]
I see. I doubt however that the against-ID sentiment is due to its cost. In Italy you just have to provide 2 pictures of yourself and voilā, your document is ready and valid for ten years. I don't think you have to pay, and if you have, I don't think it's more than 10 euro.
I could understand, although not agree, if you're scared by big-brother state that registers you all. But the cost excuse doesn't hold.

EDIT: Issue and renewal of ID in Italy costs 5.42€

Last edited by g.spinoza; October 5th, 2012 at 04:35 PM.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #16308
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Meanwhile in Germany...
There was a similar case in Finland. The plumber company LVIS24 was banned from using the colouring scheme the Finnish police is using.



Last year I bought a new car. At the most important phase (selecting the colour), the sales guy noticed that the car configurator system would allow ordering the car in the colours of the Italian police. I rejected that proposal.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #16309
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Wait, how do you identify yourself without an ID?
How did people vote before driver's licenses, or photography for that matter, were invented? :-)

Seriously, when you get to the polling place, there's a huge book with a page for everyone registered at that polling place. You tell the poll worker your name, they find your record, and you sign it. Your signature will need to match your signature from past elections and your original registration. (Signing it also prevents you from coming back later and trying to vote a second time.)
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Last edited by Penn's Woods; October 5th, 2012 at 05:28 PM. Reason: grammar (self-:bash:)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #16310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle

I don't get all the fuss about showing ID to vote. You need to show your ID for pretty much anything. In the Netherlands you need to show your ID to vote.
It is an offence in the Netherlands not to present your ID when requested. For me that is a step to far, and in breach of personal liberty's. The Netherlands is not as free as people think.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:46 PM   #16311
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In Italy you are not required to carry the ID with you at all times, only to identify yourself to a policeman or other officer. However, if the officer is not satisfied by your oral identification, he can hold you until your identity is differently proven. In practical terms, it is always convenient to carry your ID with you.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #16312
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In Holland you get fined when not having one on you. And probably taken into custody until ID is proven.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #16313
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I see. Is the driving license equivalent to the ID? In Italy it is, as well as nautical license, gun license, and any other official document with picture and signature. I remember when I was 18 and went to the army medical, one of the guys with me had no ID but his fishing license. It was enough for the army officials.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #16314
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It is an offence in the Netherlands not to present your ID when requested. For me that is a step to far, and in breach of personal liberty's. The Netherlands is not as free as people think.
It sounds ridiculous to you, but what if you were an illegal immigrant? You have to look at it from this perspective. It's the same here, but I'm not worried about it. I've never had to present my ID and it's very unlikely, if you behave normally.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #16315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso

It sounds ridiculous to you, but what if you were an illegal immigrant? You have to look at it from this perspective. It's the same here, but I'm not worried about it. I've never had to present my ID and it's very unlikely, if you behave normally.
Illegal immigrant with a native tongue? With what I gather, this id thing still gives a few steers in the old country, but I'm not sure. I haven't lived there for so long. Maybe Chris can tell a bit more.

G, I think a drivers license is a form of valid ID, yes.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 05:26 PM   #16316
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Illegal immigrant with a native tongue?
What about real illegal immigrants? How would they identify themselves, if it were forbidden to ask them for their IDs?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #16317
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What about real illegal immigrants? How would they identify themselves, if it were forbidden to ask them for their IDs?
With an illegal (fake) ID?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #16318
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Why would they show a fake ID, if they didn't have to show their ID at all?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #16319
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Quote:
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So you basically have to vote two times, the second of which on an open unsecured line. What if you deliberately change the second time your vote? What if someone maliciously changes it as you send it? What if you have better things to do than re-vote a second time just to prove that the first one was right?
And how do you do it in the paper votings. You have to count tbe ballots. How do you secure that there were no additional ballots or ballots missing? How do you secure that the ballots that you count are the same ones that were thrown in? How do you secure that commission did not signed on the list people that were not present. Believe me it wasn't that hard to make the communist party get its 99,6 percent with good old pen and paper.

You just have to trust the commission. There is no way to check the work of the commission, if you have doubts. You would have to repeat the voting.

I am not an expert on the electronic voting systems and digital security, but I would not dismiss this possibility before trying it out and experiencing it. I am sure, that if someone had tried to fake the results, you would have found out sooner or later.

Last edited by Surel; October 5th, 2012 at 06:15 PM.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #16320
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Why would they show a fake ID, if they didn't have to show their ID at all?
There are other forms of ID also in the US. E.g. I don't know if someone could argue that he is american (because born in US) even if he did not speak as native speaker (or even if he did speak as native) and his US birth certificate would not be existing.

This means, who has the burden of proving your identity. You or the government?
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