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Old October 5th, 2012, 06:16 PM   #16321
g.spinoza
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Yes, of course it's a matter of trust. But I prefer trusting people than people AND technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
And how do you do it in the paper votings. You have to count tbe ballots. How do you secure that there were no additional ballots or ballots missing? How do you secure that the ballots that you count are the same ones that were thrown in? How do you secure that commission did not signed on the list people that were not present. Believe me it wasn't that hard to make the communist party get its 99,6 percent with good old pen and paper.

You just have to trust the commission. There is no way to check the work of the commission, if you have doubts. You would have to repeat the voting.

I am not an expert on the electronic voting systems and digital security, but I would not dismiss this possibility before trying it out and experiencing it. I am sure, that if someone had tried to fake the results, you would have found out sooner or later.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 06:57 PM   #16322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Yes, of course it's a matter of trust. But I prefer trusting people than people AND technology.
Technology itself it's nowaday very reliable, the problem are malicious competent people that can manipulate it. With today knowledge we can build a 100% bugs-free voting machine (that would be 100% reliable in absence of illegal manipulation) but we can't be 100% sure that nobody can't hack it illegally.
Voting is probably one of the few things where the traditional method is still safer than the technological one.
For other thing, such online purchasing, we can already reach a high level of safety comparable to the traditional forms. If you buy online from a professional seller you have the right to get a warranty and can give back defective objects. You can report a scam to ebay administrators or to the police. You can (and should!) use a prepaid card (with few money inside) instead of the credit card so the seller can't access your account. Online shopping can even be safer than normal shopping because you can see feedbacks left by previous buyers, that is obviously impossible for traditional sellers. Yes, buying online from unlicensed sellers without precautions can be very risky, but also buying from unlicensed street sellers is.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 08:37 PM   #16323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
There are other forms of ID also in the US. E.g. I don't know if someone could argue that he is american (because born in US) even if he did not speak as native speaker (or even if he did speak as native) and his US birth certificate would not be existing.

This means, who has the burden of proving your identity. You or the government?
I don't quite get your point. If you don't have any documents with you, how will the police identify you?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 08:50 PM   #16324
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
How did people vote before driver's licenses, or photography for that matter, were invented? :-)

Seriously, when you get to the polling place, there's a huge book with a page for everyone registered at that polling place. You tell the poll worker your name, they find your record, and you sign it. Your signature will need to match your signature from past elections and your original registration. (Signing it also prevents you from coming back later and trying to vote a second time.)
Really, that's it? Seems a bit...primitive, if you ask me.

In Estonia, an ID is compulsory for all citizens. People with living permits can also apply for an ID card. Our ID-card is a smart card which means that you can plug it into a card reader and make online payments, vote online, give electronic signatures etc. It pretty much is your identification on the Internet.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 08:51 PM   #16325
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Why do they need to identify you? Here, they can't stop you without a good reason (they suspect you of a crime or you're trying to enter a secured area; that sort of thing).
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Old October 5th, 2012, 08:53 PM   #16326
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Really, that's it? Seems a bit...primitive, if you ask me.

In Estonia, an ID is compulsory for all citizens. People with living permits can also apply for an ID card. Our ID-card is a smart card which means that you can plug it into a card reader and make online payments, vote online, give electronic signatures etc. It pretty much is your identification on the Internet.
As I already said, we don't have a national (or state, whatever level) ID requirement. Neither, I believe, does the UK. Suggest it in either country and people will start muttering about a police state.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 08:55 PM   #16327
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Estonia is very far ahead with such things, even for Europe.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #16328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Why do they need to identify you? Here, they can't stop you without a good reason (they suspect you of a crime or you're trying to enter a secured area; that sort of thing).
It is not mandatory to have an ID with you. But it is your primary identification. Let's say you go to a hospital and want to sign in, you will be asked your ID-card. You want to sign up for a credit card, you have to show your ID-card. Passport will also do but since it's a travel document, it's not compulsory.

BTW, talking about a police state. The US requirements for passports means that all of our passports are now equipped with an electronic chip with our fingerprints on it. If that's not a sign of a police state, I don't know what is.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:05 PM   #16329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Why do they need to identify you? Here, they can't stop you without a good reason (they suspect you of a crime or you're trying to enter a secured area; that sort of thing).
And what do they do when you have no documents with you? If you really committed a crime, they would arrest you anyway, but what if it's a misunderstanding?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:09 PM   #16330
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Once you're in custody they will know who you are soon enough.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #16331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
It is not mandatory to have an ID with you. But it is your primary identification. Let's say you go to a hospital and want to sign in, you will be asked your ID-card. You want to sign up for a credit card, you have to show your ID-card. Passport will also do but since it's a travel document, it's not compulsory.

BTW, talking about a police state. The US requirements for passports means that all of our passports are now equipped with an electronic chip with our fingerprints on it. If that's not a sign of a police state, I don't know what is.
I am not a spokesman for the State Department, thank you, and will not answer for this sort of thing. :-P (But border control is a context where, um, individual rights are limited.)

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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
And what do they do when you have no documents with you? If you really committed a crime, they would arrest you anyway, but what if it's a misunderstanding?
How are "your documents"* relevant to whether it's a misunderstanding or not?

*In fact - and I'm not kidding - the notion of being asked for "my documents" sounds vaguely, um, early-'40s Europe. Probably happens in black-and-white, with a German accent. Like in Casablanca. I realize Casablanca's not in Europe.

EDIT: I just learned what regime instituted the national ID card in France, and why: Vichy. To help identify people for deportation. So the Casablanca reference isn't that far off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ies_by_country
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Last edited by Penn's Woods; October 5th, 2012 at 09:21 PM.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:15 PM   #16332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Estonia is very far ahead with such things, even for Europe.
I'm not clear how a mandatory ID constitutes aheadness (no, that's not a real word) or why you're assuming that Europe's level of aheadness is higher (than whose?)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #16333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I'm not clear how a mandatory ID constitutes aheadness (no, that's not a real word) or why you're assuming that Europe's level of aheadness is higher (than whose?)
The same way that anti-counterfeit banknotes are a sign of "aheadness": they prevent people from using pieces of toilet paper to make payments. The same way, IDs prevent people from stealing your identity and vote, check in at airports, hotels etc. taking your place.

Our ways are so 40s, but Anglo-US common law is so XIX century, if the way of ascertain (is that a word?) one's identity is "you have to take my word for it". I don't think there's room for this kind of "gentlemen's agreement" in the world of today.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #16334
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Well, I guess we (and the British, and the Australians, and the Canadians....) are just backwards. While the freaking Vichy regime was advanced.

Always a pleasure being looked down on by the continent that [...self-censored].
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #16335
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Well, I guess we (and the British, and the Australians, and the Canadians....) are just backwards. While the freaking Vichy regime was advanced.

Always a pleasure being looked down on by the continent that [...self-censored].
As we say in Italy "you're throwing away dirty water and the baby". Not everything Vichy did was bad just because it was Vichy. If it did something good, why throwing it away? But I sense Americans can never understand this kind of reasoning. For you it's all black or white.

(As if Americans didn't commit genocide against Natives, umpff...)
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:46 PM   #16336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I am not a spokesman for the State Department, thank you, and will not answer for this sort of thing. :-P (But border control is a context where, um, individual rights are limited.)
Schengen is your answer then why an ID card is mandatory.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:46 PM   #16337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Once you're in custody they will know who you are soon enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
How are "your documents"* relevant to whether it's a misunderstanding or not?

*In fact - and I'm not kidding - the notion of being asked for "my documents" sounds vaguely, um, early-'40s Europe. Probably happens in black-and-white, with a German accent. Like in Casablanca. I realize Casablanca's not in Europe.

EDIT: I just learned what regime instituted the national ID card in France, and why: Vichy. To help identify people for deportation. So the Casablanca reference isn't that far off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ies_by_country
What I meant was for example, you're a Mexican living legally in the US close to the Mexican border. One day the police stop you in the street, because they think you're an illegal immigrant. How do you prove them you aren't without going to a police station?

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
(As if Americans didn't commit genocide against Natives, umpff...)
Those were Europeans.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #16338
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Green card and social security number.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #16339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods
Well, I guess we (and the British, and the Australians, and the Canadians....) are just backwards. While the freaking Vichy regime was advanced.

Always a pleasure being looked down on by the continent that [...self-censored].
If you are a honest citizen with nothing to hide why having an ID bother you? If it may help to stop criminals, welcome it.
If we look at the regime who made an innovation we should also get ride of or Civil Code (written by very competent law technics) just because it was signed by Mussolini.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso
Those were Europeans.
Were Europeans also those who started the war in Vietnam, supported the fascist regime in Chile, segregated blacks and whites until the 60s, put an embargo towards Cuba just for political reasons, etc...?
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:16 PM   #16340
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Let's cut the anti Americanism. We have a lot to thank for.
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