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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:29 PM   #16341
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK
Let's cut the anti Americanism. We have a lot to thank for.
Off course, we can't forget the liberation and Marshall plan.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #16342
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Exactly.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:35 PM   #16343
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Schengen is your answer then why an ID card is mandatory.
No it is not the answer.

The Finnish citizens do not need to carry any ID card in Finland. The authorities have tools to get to know if the person has a right to stay in Finland or not.

For foreigners, various rules apply, depending on the case, for example

- Citizens of Sweden, Norway, Denmark or Iceland (Nordic passport union)
- Citizens of EU countries
- Citizens of non-EU countries needing no visa
- Citizens of non-EU countries needing a visa
- Persons having a residence permit
- Asylum seekers
- etc
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:41 PM   #16344
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Estonia has had electronic voting since 2005. In the 2011 parliamentary elections, roughly 25% of participants gave their vote over the Internet (including I). Very few people have a problem with that over here. Our banking is also very much online-based - 99.3% of money transactions withing Estonia are made online.
How does this system prevent say a husband forcing his wife to give her vote according to what he wants?

Preventing this, I think, is one of the cornerstones of free and democratic elections.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #16345
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Let's cut the anti Americanism. We have a lot to thank for.
Anti Americanism is one of the funniest things Europeans can do: acting like douchebags while accusing the Americans of being douchebags

Lots of douchebaggery, though
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:46 PM   #16346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Green card and social security number.
Do you carry them with you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Were Europeans also those who started the war in Vietnam, supported the fascist regime in Chile, segregated blacks and whites until the 60s, put an embargo towards Cuba just for political reasons, etc...?
Of course not, that's recent history, but we could say Indians were 'genocided' by Europeans, it was happening when they arrived in North America. Perhaps later 'Americans' were also killing them, not sure.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 10:58 PM   #16347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso
Of course not, that's recent history, but we could say Indians were 'genocided' by Europeans, it was happening when they arrived in North America. Perhaps later 'Americans' were also killing them, not sure.
The last massacre against natives happened in 1890, more than 100 years after the Declaration of Indipendence.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #16348
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I don't quite get your point. If you don't have any documents with you, how will the police identify you?
Imagine you are illegaly in the US. You don't have any documents anywhere nor are you registered anywhere. And you claim that you are american citizen. Who is there to prove that you are not?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #16349
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Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
Really, that's it? Seems a bit...primitive, if you ask me.

In Estonia, an ID is compulsory for all citizens. People with living permits can also apply for an ID card. Our ID-card is a smart card which means that you can plug it into a card reader and make online payments, vote online, give electronic signatures etc. It pretty much is your identification on the Internet.
Indeed, very nicely done.

Although I would like to see the identity yet verified by the fingerprint or retina scan, face recognition etc. etc. (really not a problem now a day to have this installed into any laptop) + a password.

Anything that cuts the middle man between the citizens and the government is a great leap and real economic improvement.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:31 PM   #16350
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Having glanced over this page of posts only, it looks like I'm glad I skipped the last couple of hours. But seriously: why can't Europeans (I know I'm generalizing) accept it when Americans (or anyone for that matter) do something differently from them? Can't we not have a national ID without you throwing words like "backwards" around? That's not enlightenment and "aheadness"; it's arrogant, narrow-minded provinicialism. Faults some of you all are in the habit of accusing us of, ironically.

Bullshit Eurocentrism is bullshit.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:37 PM   #16351
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
EDIT: For Spinoza, two posts back....

It's very easy to register. A month before an election, if you're out and about enough, you'll probably be asked by a nice volunteer for one of the parties or other organizations whether you're registered. If you're not, they have the form. You fill it out and give it to them, and they are obligated by law to turn it in for you.

When I moved in 2008 (a month before the primary), I actually changed my address as I was moving - a volunteer happened to be working the corner of my street (in a quiet area on a Sunday morning, yet) and asked if I was registered; I said "yes, but I'm moving into this block literally today; do you have a change-of-address form?" He did; I sat down and filled it out; done.

As far as getting to the polling place; they're extremely thick on the ground; in a city the size of Philadelphia it's not a question of going to City Hall. I vote in the lobby of an apartment building. I've heard of large apartment buildings that have their own polling places just for their residents. There's one at the parish hall of a church across the street from me but for some reason I'm not assigned there.

At any rate, people who are too unwell to get out, or who will be away, can apply for an "absentee ballot," fill it out at home and mail it in. (I don't know if it's "Business Reply Mail," which you don't have to stamp because the recipient pays for it. :-) )

More and more states are offering "early voting" - some states are already voting for this election - if Election Day is inconvenient for you. (In that instance, you won't have a bunch of polling places all over town, you'll have to go to the county board of elections or whatever.) And more and more states aren't requiring you to give a reason (illness, travel...) for the absentee ballot. Pennsylvania's still a bit old-fashioned in that respect: voting is on Election Day only and absentee ballots may need a justification (that I'm not sure about).

I guess there must be a central register of US citizens right, or is it perceived as great evil? Well, I read about some people that asked for US visa and they could not receive any as they told them at the embassy that they are american citizens, because they were born in the US .

I would like to konw who checks that the voters lists correspond to the US citizens register, that there are not made up people on the list (faked registrations).

But anyway I think there are other systemic problems in the US voting system. E.g. the delegates - electors, the way the primaries work, decissions by public acclamation etc and in general the party conventions, it looks quite strange to me. I don't want to criticize too much as I am not that familiar with the system but some features are indeed not from this age anymore. Let alone talking about bipartism which I once thought is quite appealing concept but I am not that sure anymore.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:39 PM   #16352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Having glanced over this page of posts only, it looks like I'm glad I skipped the last couple of hours. But seriously: why can't Europeans (I know I'm generalizing) accept it when Americans (or anyone for that matter) do something differently from them? Can't we not have a national ID without you throwing words like "backwards" around? That's not enlightenment and "aheadness"; it's arrogant, narrow-minded provinicialism. Faults some of you all are in the habit of accusing us of, ironically.

Bullshit Eurocentrism is bullshit.
LOL. I accept it. Am I not allowed to discuss it? I guess no one is planning an invasion to the US to change the matters. This post is like hearing some Russian ranting about the outsiders not respecting the Russian way of doing things...
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:41 PM   #16353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods
Having glanced over this page of posts only, it looks like I'm glad I skipped the last couple of hours. But seriously: why can't Europeans (I know I'm generalizing) accept it when Americans (or anyone for that matter) do something differently from them? Can't we not have a national ID without you throwing words like "backwards" around? That's not enlightenment and "aheadness"; it's arrogant, narrow-minded provinicialism. Faults some of you all are in the habit of accusing us of, ironically.

Bullshit Eurocentrism is bullshit.
I agree, every country is free to have its own laws and as long human right are respected they're ok.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 12:01 AM   #16354
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I guess there must be a central register of US citizens right, or is it perceived as great evil? Well, I read about some people that asked for US visa and they could not receive any as they told them at the embassy that they are american citizens, because they were born in the US .
Central register? I've never heard of one. The issue will, or may, come up from time to time for individuals. Last time I needed to prove my citizenship - to get a passport - I brought my birth certificate with me, and probably "proof of my Social Security number," which shows up on things like your paycheck.

But if your friends were indeed US citizens they wouldn't need a visa to travel here; to get into the US, they could use American passports, which they'd be entitled to. At least that's my guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
I would like to konw who checks that the voters lists correspond to the US citizens register, that there are not made up people on the list (faked registrations).
Another prove-your-citizenship situation. I registered to vote 30 years ago, in New Jersey; don't remember how I proved it. Don't remember how it happened when I moved to Pennsylvania 12 years later - I do know you have to tell them you were registered in another state and they report it to that state so you're off their rolls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
But anyway I think there are other systemic problems in the US voting system. E.g. the delegates - electors, the way the primaries work, decissions by public acclamation etc and in general the party conventions, it looks quite strange to me. I don't want to criticize too much as I am not that familiar with the system but some features are indeed not from this age anymore. Let alone talking about bipartism which I once thought is quite appealing concept but I am not that sure anymore.
Sigh.

This is a federal state where a lot of this stuff evolved. Is it ideal? No. But "not from this age"?

Primaries are a way of having parties' candidates chosen by the public, rather than party officials gathering privately (which is the way it used to happen - and still does in just about every other country I'm aware of). Any voter can participate in the primary of their choice. How is that less democratic than party officials' choosing candidates? The French Socialist Party had a primary to choose their last presidential candidate because they thought it was more democratic than the old way - but you had to pay to participate. Unthinkable here.

Party conventions are where said secretly-chosen representatives from state parties used to gather to choose national candidates. Now that the delegates are elected in primaries and therefore obligated to respect the voters' wishes the convention has become a formality wrapped up in a four-day show, but I think that's an improvement.

The electors are likewise absolutely obligated to respect the wishes of their states' voters. It's a bit of a formality. It has its advantages (it assures that a candidate needs to have reasonably wide national appeal) and its disadvantages (about one election in 15, it doesn't match the popular vote), but I don't see it as less democratic than, say, Belgium requiring - perfectly appropriately in my opinion - that certain matters need to be approved by both Flemings and Francophones, or Canada giving Quebec a veto on language issues. Absolute majority rule in those countries would permit English Canadians to remove French as an official language or Flemings to unilaterally annex Brussels. This sort of mechanism protects minorities' interests, and as long as it was agreed to that's appropriate and desirable.

Bipartisanism? Well, the alternative seems to be a lot of tiny little parties who then form a coalition in a process the voters have absolutely no say in. The first Belgian election I followed (the 2004 regionals), where forming the governments took six weeks, I couldn't help thinking that if I were a Belgian I'd feel disenfranchised. And I mean no disrespect to Belgium or Belgians in saying so, and certainly wouldn't call them "backwards." (And we've seen since that six weeks is nothing there....)

"not from this age"? See my previous post.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #16355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
The last massacre against natives happened in 1890, more than 100 years after the Declaration of Indipendence.
Then Europeans and Americans were both guilty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Imagine you are illegaly in the US. You don't have any documents anywhere nor are you registered anywhere. And you claim that you are american citizen. Who is there to prove that you are not?
My point exactly.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 12:11 AM   #16356
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about the first thing:

The guy in question did not know he is a US citizen. He was CZ citizen his whole life. He was just born in the US, but apparently never considered it. When he wanted to travel to the US, he was told at the embassy that he can't get a visa. Startled he asked why. They told him that he can't get a visa, because he is US citizen. But that he can get the passport right away.

My point being. The gov. somehow had to find out that he is a US citizen. He did not prove it, they proved it. So I guess there has to be some sort of register anyway. Unless they had it only for such special cases... but not for an ordinary redneck.

about the second thing:

It was not about you proving anything. My question was. How is anyone able to check that on the list with voters are not made up people? This problem is universal, not only in the US. Your problem was otherwise, you needed to prove that you are the person on that list, thats quite easily done.

about the american thing:

I am not going into that anymore tonight.

Last edited by Surel; October 6th, 2012 at 12:17 AM.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #16357
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"Undocumented" is in fact the current politically-correct term here for what we used to call "illegal aliens."

I'm guessing - just guessing - that if some government official reallly thinks you're in the country illegally, they have to take you to court and ask a judge to decide whether you can be deported. The burden of proof ought to be on the government in that case. No idea how the court hearings really play out....
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Old October 6th, 2012, 12:18 AM   #16358
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Originally Posted by Surel View Post


The guy in question did not know he is a US citizen. He was CZ citizen his whole life. He was just born in the US, but apparently never considered it. When he wanted to travel to the US, he was told at the embassy that he can't get a visa. Startled he asked why. They told him that he can't get a visa, because he is US citizen. But that he can get the passport right away.

My point being. The gov. somehow had to find out that he is a US citizen. He did not prove it, they proved it. So I guess there has to be some sort of register anyway. Unless they had it only for such special cases... but not for an ordinary redneck.
Hmm. I'm totally guessing here, but everyone gets a Social Security number (a Social Security card too, but I have no idea where mine is....) at birth. I suppose there'd be a government database of those numbers. Did he tell the embassy he was born here? That would in fact make him a citizen, as far as I know. So if he told them he was born here and they checked to see if he had a Social Security number and they found he did, that would probably be enough to entitle him to a passport.

So I guess that Social Security database might be what you call a register of citizens. But I can't believe it goes much farther than very basic information like name, date of birth, place of birth, parents.... Having a file on everyone is part of the fear about ID cards. Here's what the American Civil Liberties Union - a leading individual-rights organization that's perceived as left-wing - has to say about ID cards, but I'm sure you can find comparable objections from the other end of the political spectrum, and similar arguments in Britain: http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-l...ional-id-cards
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Old October 6th, 2012, 12:23 AM   #16359
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Hmm. I'm totally guessing here, but everyone gets a Social Security number (a Social Security card too, but I have no idea where mine is....) at birth. I suppose there'd be a government database of those numbers. Did he tell the embassy he was born here? That would in fact make him a citizen, as far as I know. So if he told them he was born here and they checked to see if he had a Social Security number and they found he did, that would probably be enough to entitle him to a passport.
No he did not. It was complete surprise to him, since he had a flight in 9 days and expected a visa. I think the embassy does a search on any records of the people that are applying for a visa. And there somewhere boom, he showed up to be an american...

He might have had a social security number given if his parents arranged that, he did not know. At least thats what he claims.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 01:12 AM   #16360
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"Undocumented" is in fact the current politically-correct term here for what we used to call "illegal aliens."

I'm guessing - just guessing - that if some government official reallly thinks you're in the country illegally, they have to take you to court and ask a judge to decide whether you can be deported. The burden of proof ought to be on the government in that case. No idea how the court hearings really play out....
"Undocumented-looking" Americans better have some document with them then.
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