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Old October 6th, 2012, 09:00 AM   #16361
Penn's Woods
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Off course, we can't forget the liberation and Marshall plan.
The Liberation and the Marshall Plan are beside the point, or should be! Can't you just treat Americans with the same respect you'd treat any human being, because we're human beings?
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Old October 6th, 2012, 09:07 AM   #16362
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
"Undocumented-looking" Americans better have some document with them then.
There's been controversy in the state of Arizona over the last year or two: the state (which, as you may know, borders Mexico) passed a law giving its police the right to ask anyone who they thought might not be a citizen to prove that they were. Major outcry from, mostly, the left end of the political spectrum ("So they'll stop anyone who looks Hispanic!") Critics nicknamed the law the "papers, please" law, because the idea that you can just have to produce proof of identity when you're minding your own business really is that strange to us. The law went to the Supreme Court. I think it was upheld. I can think of a couple of reasons I think it shouldn't have been.

I assume immigrants who become citizens get some sort of document saying so. And there's the famous "green card," which is not in fact green as far as I know, for immigrants who are legal residents but not yet citizens. But whether naturalized citizens or legal residents carry this sort of thing on them at all times, I have no idea. I suppose they have to in Arizona now.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 01:00 PM   #16363
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Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
No it is not the answer.

The Finnish citizens do not need to carry any ID card in Finland. The authorities have tools to get to know if the person has a right to stay in Finland or not.
I didn't say you have to carry the ID card with you. I just said that you have to have one.

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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Having glanced over this page of posts only, it looks like I'm glad I skipped the last couple of hours. But seriously: why can't Europeans (I know I'm generalizing) accept it when Americans (or anyone for that matter) do something differently from them? Can't we not have a national ID without you throwing words like "backwards" around? That's not enlightenment and "aheadness"; it's arrogant, narrow-minded provinicialism. Faults some of you all are in the habit of accusing us of, ironically.

Bullshit Eurocentrism is bullshit.
I don't have a problem with what you do since I don't live in the US (well, actually, your decisions affect us a lot but that's beside the point). I just find your opposition to an ID quite silly. If you can still be identified by the police and you have to identify yourself anyway when going to the bank or voting, why oppose an ID? It's not like an ID-card has a GPS on it that can be tracked...if the police really wanted to find you, they could use your phone for that

I have a friend who sold books in the US this summer and he had a few encounters with the police. What amazed him and myself is that a lot of the inquiries made by the police were made by phone. And if the city council or whatnot was closed by that time, there was no way to gain access to that information. The US is home to pretty much all of the leading IT firms, yet your authorities still use printed documents and telephones as your main source of storing and gaining access to information. Isn't it time to move on?
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Old October 6th, 2012, 02:00 PM   #16364
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Michael isn't making any decisions whatsoever that affect us, and he's just another guy that tries to make a living, just like you and me. He has no control over foreign policies, and neither do you or me. In fact, there are no differences.

We have a malfunctioning operative called the EU. We should focus on that, and not worry about what the superiors of our friends across the Atlantic do.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #16365
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
The Liberation and the Marshall Plan are beside the point, or should be! Can't you just treat Americans with the same respect you'd treat any human being, because we're human beings?
Sweet Jesus, no! You people created McDonalds and Wall Street, you must be for sure evil inside


More seriously: Europeans often need to label everyone. There are some standard labels applied to you fat rednecks driving SUVs on the other side of the pond by us, fine gentlemen sipping wine and enjoying ancient literature, which, of course, states that no other cultures existed before ours

That's a bunch of crap, but there is people who believe it. What is really sad is that they blast against "evil&dumb America" as a single entity, totally forgetting that, just like us, on the other side of the pond live a bunch of people who just try to live their life without planning how to destroy the Earth.

"Sad" is the word.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 02:22 PM   #16366
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Old October 6th, 2012, 02:54 PM   #16367
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Just a question, who else than the citizens of given country are responsible for that country behaviour in a long term? Its not that people should be personaly responsible for what their country is doing at any event, but they are identified as the citizens of the country that is doing shit. Its only logical to appeal to them when you think that the behaviour of their country is not what it should be and you disagree with it, or just when you throw in your oppinions about it.

Its anyway funny. When something positive happens than everyone wants to be identified with it as a citizen of that country. When a shit happens, then its also them (the government, a crazy person etc etc) who did it.

If a certain country is sovereign I don't buy the shit about just an ordinary guy that has nothing to do with what the country stands for. Everywhere are just ordinary guys, yet not every sovereign country is the same and behaves the same. If we realise that the majority of the population are ordinary people, then who the hell should be responsible, if not ordinary people?

Its not that I would like to trial or punish the ordinary people for crimes of their governments or something like that. Its just that they have what they deserve if we can talk about sovereignity.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #16368
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Michael isn't making any decisions whatsoever that affect us, and he's just another guy that tries to make a living, just like you and me. He has no control over foreign policies, and neither do you or me. In fact, there are no differences.
I didn't quite get my sentence right. I meant that the decisions of USA affect Estonian foreign policies.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #16369
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Just a question, who else than the citizens of given country are responsible for that country behaviour in a long term? Its not that people should be personaly responsible for what their country is doing at any event, but they are identified as the citizens of the country that is doing shit. Its only logical to appeal to them when you think that the behaviour of their country is not what it should be and you disagree with it, or just when you throw in your oppinions about it.

Its anyway funny. When something positive happens than everyone wants to be identified with it as a citizen of that country. When a shit happens, then its also them (the government, a crazy person etc etc) who did it.

If a certain country is sovereign I don't buy the shit about just an ordinary guy that has nothing to do with what the country stands for. Everywhere are just ordinary guys, yet not every sovereign country is the same and behaves the same. If we realise that the majority of the population are ordinary people, then who the hell should be responsible, if not ordinary people?

Its not that I would like to trial or punish the ordinary people for crimes of their governments or something like that. Its just that they have what they deserve if we can talk about sovereignity.
Criticizing policy is one thing; drawing conclusions about national character ("Americans are warmongers!") is another. And I find it particularly offensive when Europeans condemn supposed American national character given (1) what the history of the world looks like if you go back before 1946 and (2) how many thousands of Americans lost their lives in the last two European wars. And when an individual American shows up on your forums in a sincere desire to understand France (for example) better and improve his French, confronting him with everything from slavery to fast food as if it says something about him personally is just rude. Seriously, there have been times I'd go out after an hour on Le Monde's forums and have to think "gee, these people (on the streets) don't look like monsters...."
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Old October 6th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #16370
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In othere news, I have the Weather Channel on and it's snowing on the Great Plains....
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Old October 6th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #16371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods

The Liberation and the Marshall Plan are beside the point, or should be! Can't you just treat Americans with the same respect you'd treat any human being, because we're human beings?
Nobody here criticized American as people but the criticism was against certain policies of the American government, especially those aggressive against other countries (even if we Europeans weren't angels in our African colonies).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 05:55 PM   #16372
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Criticizing policy is one thing; drawing conclusions about national character ("Americans are warmongers!") is another. And I find it particularly offensive when Europeans condemn supposed American national character given (1) what the history of the world looks like if you go back before 1946 and (2) how many thousands of Americans lost their lives in the last two European wars. And when an individual American shows up on your forums in a sincere desire to understand France (for example) better and improve his French, confronting him with everything from slavery to fast food as if it says something about him personally is just rude. Seriously, there have been times I'd go out after an hour on Le Monde's forums and have to think "gee, these people (on the streets) don't look like monsters...."
I don't really think that the ball is on the side of the people that think about Americans being warmongers. I think that the ball is on the Americans to change that image in those people heads. Its the same like the ball is on the side of Russians in this matter or in other matters, the Germans, the French etc.

Well, for me an American can condemn the Europeans because of the WWII, the ball is on mine side to show him that there is no WWII right now and Europe is quite different (and here we are) than it was back then. Its primarily mine responsibility to make him like me when I don't like that he is criticizing me (if it is my concern, if it isn't than I don't care what he thinks, in fact I can consider him ignorant).

Do you think there is not anything that could be considered as a national character? I 100 % believe there is a national character as well as a regional character etc. Its the average of perceived behaviour that forms this character. The things that are noticed the most are the differences and those differences are averaged across the whole population. I may make someone pretty pissed, because he is completaly different, however he is part of certain population that on average shows certain characteristics. Thats how people are equiped, the simplify and make simple conclusions based on data, since no one is able to handle all of the data. Also you want to make predictions of individual actions based on sample data characteristics.


Its like with animals. People know that some animals are aggresive, they don´t know whether that individual animal is aggresive or not, but they know that certain animal kinds are said to be aggresive and therefore they are aware that individual animal of this kind can be aggresive and they approch him as such. This is quite reasonable strategy.


Maybe the problem is also in the person that takes it personally don't you think? When someone talks with you about Americans, and that makes sense, if you happen to be American, it doesn't mean that he talks about you. He can't talk about you, because he knows nothing about you. The only thing he knows is that you are an american. Therefore he talks about what he considers the most interesting and thats are his ideas about americans, his mental image. Since extreme and strange things (in the sense of different) are the most interesting things, it is clear what he would talk about.

I don't know if people condemn it just like that. But people certainly do consider many things that are just different to be inferior. There is no external judge that would say, this behaviour is inferior and that behaviour is superiour. And in many cases there is no clear measure for what is better and what is worse. We judge it by ourselves. We judge it mostly by experience. If we have no personal experience our judgement is only based on our ideas. If the only ideas that we have are the ideas based in our own culture in the information we are fed when we grow up and the information we pick up in our lifes, then it is clear that the behaviour of other cultures will be apriory seen as strange and possibly inferior.

This example is not about you, but I think that it pretty much shows the logic.

Imagine that you are an american loving fast food. You come to discuss with an european that loves to cook at home. Imagine further that the idea of europeans about americans is that they mostly get their food at the fast foods and the european considers such food junk because it makes people fat. The european will have comments on the fat americans eating discusting junk, being unable to cook etc. You could feel offended. But actually why should you feel offended? If you love the fast food and you think that it is best for you, you can just ignore that european's guy ideas, or you can try to prove him wrong, in any case you can laugh him off because you know better them him, don't you? If on the other side you think he might be right, why should you be offended if he is rigth?

As long as there will be countries with different cultures, regimes etc. that pursue their own interest, there will be such problems. Its only natural and quite reasonable.

Last edited by Surel; October 6th, 2012 at 06:03 PM.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 06:51 PM   #16373
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Bye everybody, I'm going to spend a month in Puglia with my parents, my father's ill and is going to be hospitalized there. Don't know how much I will be on the forum. Worst case scenario, see you in a month or so.

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Old October 6th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #16374
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Hope your father will have a fast recovery.

My grandmother was hospitalized today... she stepped on a rusty nail...
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Old October 6th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #16375
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Bye everybody, I'm going to spend a month in Puglia with my parents, my father's ill and is going to be hospitalized there. Don't know how much I will be on the forum. Worst case scenario, see you in a month or so.
Good luck!
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Old October 6th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #16376
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I didn't say you have to carry the ID card with you. I just said that you have to have one.
Still the Schengen treaty has nothing to do with this case. A passport or an official ID card is needed when crossing the borders, exactly like in the pre-Schengen era.
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Old October 6th, 2012, 11:51 PM   #16377
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"Undocumented" is in fact the current politically-correct term here for what we used to call "illegal aliens."
I don't agree with this term. It makes illegal immigrants look like people who merely lack a document, such as a tourist that has a visa but lost his passport, or some licensed driver who forgot his/her driver's license at home.

It is a very politically charged term that assume these people (illegal immigrants) belong to the place they live regardless of their (lack of) citizenship/residency status.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 12:12 AM   #16378
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Well, the "don't say illegal" phenomenon is something I've only become aware of in the last month or so. It's that new. (The word "undocumented" has been around for a few years, but I had no idea the, um, pro-legalization, pro-acceptance, whatever you want to call them, movement considered "illegal" offensive.) Although if you think about it, I suppose "undocumented" sort of presumes innocence while "illegal" presumes guilt. Maybe that's where it came from; I have no idea.

That said, one recent political issue has involved how to treat people who were brought here illegally as young children, don't remember the country they came from, perhaps don't know its language, certainly can't be held morally responsible for being here illegally (maybe they're college-age now and didn't even know they were "illegal").... I'm certainly sympathetic to not uprooting such people. And hence to being sensitive to them in my vocabulary.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 12:39 AM   #16379
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Today was the first time I had to wait for an active ramp meter while the motorway was closed before that onramp for the weekend for roadworks, so there was no traffic at all for which traffic from the onramp had to be metered to... It looked kind of silly, but the red light camera was for real so I waited patiently before I accessed the empty motorway.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 02:16 AM   #16380
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I don't agree with this term. It makes illegal immigrants look like people who merely lack a document, such as a tourist that has a visa but lost his passport, or some licensed driver who forgot his/her driver's license at home.

It is a very politically charged term that assume these people (illegal immigrants) belong to the place they live regardless of their (lack of) citizenship/residency status.
Well you would first have to prove they are illegal immigrants to call them illegal immigrants. Until you prove it, they are just people lacking a document whether they are national, residents, homeless or whatever they claim they are, arent they?

Presumption of innocence is the issue here.

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Today was the first time I had to wait for an active ramp meter while the motorway was closed before that onramp for the weekend for roadworks, so there was no traffic at all for which traffic from the onramp had to be metered to... It looked kind of silly, but the red light camera was for real so I waited patiently before I accessed the empty motorway.
I thought that those meters would be automatically adjusted or switched off acording to the traffic on the motorway? Was it malfunctioning?
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