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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:15 PM   #16801
Surel
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Bullshit. If you want them to integrate, you help them. If they don't, it's their own choice. If they cause trouble, you apply a zero-tolerance policy, and put a lot of cops in their villages, and smoke the criminals out. A bit like Giuliani did in New York city. Or the way France tackled the problem...

Edit: If you put them in housing with no electricity or water, you are asking for trouble.
Should we then put all these people in prisons like they solve the problem in the USA?
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:17 PM   #16802
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I am not calling you a racist. I am not calling any of the Eastern European regulars who write on here are racist, most of them have become my friends. But you understand my point that countries like Hungary still have a long way to go to be on the same level as the west. I am not trying to downgrade you, you have been working hard already, and the change from communism to free market is always likely to be painful. Especially with the ones that had jobs and security in the past, are now left to roam the streets looking for food.

But some attitudes need to change really bad. And you must admit that racism in your part of the world is an ongoing issue, which makes cause for a lot of concern from western countries. We can see that when a black student gets beaten up, or when black footballers are being attacked and whistled...
+1 to the bold. I didn't say what I did to start a fight (and in fact have stayed away from this thread since then, until now, to keep myself out of trouble). I like this forum and the people on it, but I honestly found the conversation shocking to the point I felt I needed to say so.

And now, I'll shut up about it.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:19 PM   #16803
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Should we then put all these people in prisons like they solve the problem in the USA?
Yes. You put criminals - after a trial and found guilty - in prisons.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:23 PM   #16804
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There is no excuse for large scale racism that we see in Eastern Europe every day. Eastern European countries have a very long way to go, before they can become reliable partners in the international community.
But before that they should finally exterminate polar bears.

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Just a note: Slovenia is on the right way. It even has a elected black African mayor.
Poland has two black deputies.
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Kiedy padł ten pierwszy strzał, Kosteczku, to wszystko się zaczęło, zaczęli strzelać ci grenszuce, których chłopcy jeszcze nie zdążyli rozbroić, i zaczęli strzelać ci chłopcy, którzy już mieli jakieś karabiny albo nulachty, i posypało się trochę strzałów. Słyszałeś krzyki:
- Erich dostoł! - i do dziś nie wiesz, czy to krzyczał grenszuc, czy powstaniec.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:35 PM   #16805
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Yes. You put criminals - after a trial and found guilty - in prisons.
Yeah, lovely. If only it was that easy.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:39 PM   #16806
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Yes it is. Otherwise you get anarchy.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:42 PM   #16807
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Well as I already posted. I would love to see this arrest in the US... they would have been tased or shot.



In Europe, you would have got headlines about racist police.

Last edited by Surel; November 2nd, 2012 at 05:52 PM.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:57 PM   #16808
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Let them talk. If convicted they go to prison. Or are fair trials still unknown in eastern Europe?
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 05:59 PM   #16809
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Let them talk. If convicted they go to prison. Or are fair trials still unknown in eastern Europe?
Never had the chance to check, have you?
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 06:25 PM   #16810
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Yes it is. Otherwise you get anarchy.
So, I promise itt will be my last post about gipsies.
The main issue is that a quite large part of roma citizens are criminals. Usually not great crimes: pickpocketing, small robberies (stealing fruits from the garden), etc. And if you start sending them to prison, the whole world will shout you are racist.
There was a law in Hungary that no one that has children of the age of 6-14 may get social benefits if the children don't go to school. Then liberals said this law was racist and forced the government to cancel it.
Society gave them flats to live in. They tore up the floor and burnt it, they took the water pipes end electric wires and sold them. If you say you won't give them new flats again, you'll be called racist.
There are towns in Eastern (especially in North Eastern) Hungary where gipsy population is over 30%. It means that pickpocketing, robberies, etc. are very common. But if you say that something should be done because it is insufferable, you will be said to be racist.
Hungarian government said that every one that is able to work, must work, and the ones that refuse working won't get social benefits. A wide program for working started: cleaning streets, digs, etc. And now you can hear everywhere that this program is racist.

It is very controversial but here in Central Europe even the liberals appreciate that roma people dont't work, their children don't go to school, they steal electricity, trheir main income source is stealing, etc., and every time the government want to do something, force these people to work, to send the children to school, to cancel stealing, they will say the government is racist.
There is an expression here, I can not precisely translate it, but something like 'living costs crime'. It is when someone that doesn't work steals and robs for getting his/her living costs. And liberals say that living cost crime shall not be punished. But if you say that every single delinquency shall be punished - you're racist.

America elected a half black president (I mean Mr Obama). I tell you, Hungary should elect a gipsy prime minister - if there was any candidate that has at least a high school degree and is able to speak about any political topic but racism. But there is not any. All the roma politicians are there because they're roma and a deputy of some roma organization. But even the former president of the Hungarian Roma Organization is under trial - you won't guess why: he stole the money.

Everyone must understand that basically it is not a racist issue. The main issue is people that don't work, don't send the children to school, steal, rob, ruin their own environment. Accidentally, a vast majority of them are roma people; and vice versa, a quite large part of roma people does belong to this group. And this ethnic sutiation makes thing worse: anything you want to do, it will be by necessity against roma people. And, from that very moment you wll be called as racist.
Circulus vitiosus.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 06:34 PM   #16811
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@Attus: +1. fully agree.

@Penn's Woods, Road UK: its also my last post regarding gypsies, because i think you simply dont understand this problem. you have never experienced it. lucky you.

btw, you do realize that not one of us here from eastern europe had a good word about gypsies, right? coincidence? you think we are that simple-minded? think about this...
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 06:39 PM   #16812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus
...
+1

The first step toward the resolution of a problem is admitting that it exists.

In the early years of Republican Italy, the Italian government ignored and denied the mafia problems. Consequentely, mafia became very powerful because it had no opposition. When the state started to struggle against the mafia, since the 70s more and more bosses had been arrested even if mafia is still long way to be defeated and mafia-politics collusions still made headlines.

That's true for every sort of problems, from economical recession to pollution, you can't solve them if you deny them.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; November 2nd, 2012 at 06:44 PM.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 08:44 PM   #16813
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
....
++++++1

Racist/m: the magic word of the XXI century. I think it's the most overused and abused term nowadays. An escape goat to avoid the problems and a very easy way to ruin someone's reputation. And people seem to be afraid of this word and afraid to say what really think. But in my opinion those xenophile anti-racist fanatics are more ignorant than racist. Cause intollerance to certain bad behaviours, to pretend that people observe rules and laws (especially if you live in a foreign country) is not being racist, it's civilization. The real racism is against all people that live cleanly, working and respecting rules. A simple example: If I don't pay the bill of the electricity, the electric company cut off my electric current. The gypsy camp near here, has an abused cable connected with the main electric cable that serves the closer city. Everybody know it, authorities included. But nobody can do nothing against it as long as the order to do something comes from upper levels...
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 09:03 PM   #16814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyricon84
...
+1

The problem is that there are some racist politician that hate immigrants just because they are immigrants and, fortunately, most educated people condemn those views. If some smart and fair politician condemns just those immigrants who break the law, the uneducated masses wouldn't pick the difference between him and the real racists. And thus he would have been definied as racist.
I wouldn't imagine the current situation if the Italian state never did anti-mafia laws because "admitting that mafia exists would be politically uncorrect towards the inhabitants of the southern regions." We would still have Riina, Provenzano, Cutolo and many others wandering around.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 09:18 PM   #16815
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I wouldn't imagine the current situation if the Italian state never did anti-mafia laws because "admitting that mafia exists would be politically uncorrect towards the inhabitants of the southern regions." We would still have Riina, Provenzano, Cutolo and many others wandering around.
Correct, but I'm pretty reluctant to believe that the Italian state took a position on its own. I rather think that got pressions to do something against the problem by other states, United States for first. In the 1982 (mafia association offence was introduced in this year) mafia held the 80% of the heroin market in the USA. Those were the years of the "Pizza Connection"

Last edited by Satyricon84; November 2nd, 2012 at 09:26 PM.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 10:02 PM   #16816
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(..)

But some attitudes need to change really bad. And you must admit that racism in your part of the world is an ongoing issue, which makes cause for a lot of concern from western countries. We can see that when a black student gets beaten up, or when black footballers are being attacked and whistled...
Even if you are saying you do not read Daily Express, I still have a strange impression you sometimes do, and even believe what they write.

I am probably one of the oldest forumers visiting this thread. Thanks to my age I have a good memory of the communist era and so called pieriestroyka. I also remember 1989 when the wind of change came, as well as I was part of the wild capitalism of the nighties in my country. I lived in many parts of Poland including Gdansk area, Southern and Eastern Poland and the Capital City. I lived in several Western European Countries such as Sweden, The Netherlands and England. I know hundreds of people of various origins and races from many parts of the world. I even know some Gypsies. So, I am probably not so undeveloped Eastern European and may say one or two words about racism.

For the first time I discovered the meaning of the word 'racism' when visited Austria in 1991. Austria was a place where I heard words verfluchte turk. It also was the place where I was refused to be served in a restaurant after a quick chat with a waitress, who asked about my nationality. I could multiply the amount of examples of racial behaviour I experienced, saw and heard about in Western Europe, but see no particular point of it. Why am I writing all this? Only to say that I did not know the real meaning of that unpopular word, until I visited Western Europe. Also, I am going to say that the Gypsies' issue in Eastern Europe has not much to do with racism, it's more matter of their horrible behaviour. Never mind the colour of their skin.

Well, why then, all racism incidents having place in Eastern Europe are so widely popular around the world? The key word would be 'incidents'. They happen but aren't frequent, so we can hear of them. In the West, people learnt to whisper their thoughts. And even though, all(generalisation) whites hate others and all others hate whites, they don't say that too loudly.

However, they sometimes do...
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 10:37 PM   #16817
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Back from the depths of Italian South.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 11:25 PM   #16818
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welcome
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 11:49 PM   #16819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr71

Even if you are saying you do not read Daily Express, I still have a strange impression you sometimes do, and even believe what they write.

I am probably one of the oldest forumers visiting this thread. Thanks to my age I have a good memory of the communist era and so called pieriestroyka. I also remember 1989 when the wind of change came, as well as I was part of the wild capitalism of the nighties in my country. I lived in many parts of Poland including Gdansk area, Southern and Eastern Poland and the Capital City. I lived in several Western European Countries such as Sweden, The Netherlands and England. I know hundreds of people of various origins and races from many parts of the world. I even know some Gypsies. So, I am probably not so undeveloped Eastern European and may say one or two words about racism.

For the first time I discovered the meaning of the word 'racism' when visited Austria in 1991. Austria was a place where I heard words verfluchte turk. It also was the place where I was refused to be served in a restaurant after a quick chat with a waitress, who asked about my nationality. I could multiply the amount of examples of racial behaviour I experienced, saw and heard about in Western Europe, but see no particular point of it. Why I am writing all this? Only to say that the real meaning of that unpopular word, I did not know until I visited Western Europe. Also, I am going to say that the Gypsies' issue in Eastern Europe has not much to do with racism, it's more matter of their horrible behaviour. Never mind the colour of their skin.

Well, why then, all racism incidents having place in Eastern Europe are so widely popular around the world? The key word would be 'incidents'. They happen but aren't frequent, so we can hear of them. In the West, people learnt to whisper their thoughts. And even though, all(generalisation) whites hate others and all others hate whites, they don't say that too loudly.

However, they sometimes do...
I do not have to read the Daily Express to learn that the UK Foreign Office issues travel warnings to British citizens of Asian and Caribbean decent to use extreme caution when travelling to eastern European countries. Many incidents have been reported at embassies and consulates. And you cannot deny that living standards in a lot of areas are to be desired for. Why else would you be living anywhere else?
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 11:59 PM   #16820
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@Attus: +1. fully agree.

@Penn's Woods, Road UK: its also my last post regarding gypsies, because i think you simply dont understand this problem. you have never experienced it. lucky you.

btw, you do realize that not one of us here from eastern europe had a good word about gypsies, right? coincidence? you think we are that simple-minded? think about this...
Welcome to the 21st century. Or don't you think that Los Angeles has problems with Latinos? Or the Netherlands, Belgium and France with Moroccons? But they go about it two different ways. Your situation is not new here. But if they want to be members of society they will have the right to a far chance without being called bloody gibsy.
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