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Old January 3rd, 2013, 04:43 PM   #18141
keokiracer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
If we're going to debate this sort of thing, we can at least get the facts right.
Ok, you asked for it...

Quote:
U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people
(Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.

U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.

About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.

"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.

India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.
Full article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...34893820070828

35-42% of households has a gun.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ership-us-data
This is measured by surveys. (no actual data available)


Also something relevant to watch:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...-homicides-map

USA is WAAAY up there.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 04:54 PM   #18142
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Assault rifles were used last night in Switzerland and last weekend in Amsterdam.

Gun ownership is DOWN in the U.S. from 70 to 50 percent. Crime rates in cities like New York are at their lowest point in my lifetime. (The murder rate in particular is about 15 percent of what it was 30 years ago.) I personally have not touched a gun in 35 years. (Or seen one, except the time I locked myself out of my apartment in the middle of the night - - and witnessed an arrest up the street. That gun was a pistol, held by the police officer...) But for way too many people in Europe, I am more culpable, simply by virtue of having committed the sin of being born in the U.S., than the actual criminals, and I'm sick of it.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 04:57 PM   #18143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Assault rifles were used last night in Switzerland and last weekend in Amsterdam.
So? It's not like we're all saying that it only happens in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Gun ownership is DOWN in the U.S. from 70 to 50 percent. Crime rates in cities like New York are at their lowest point in my lifetime. (The murder rate in particular is about 15 percent of what it was 30 years ago.)
If you could prove so with articles/researches etc. that'd be great.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 04:58 PM   #18144
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:07 PM   #18145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
So? It's not like we're all saying that it only happens in the US.
A leading French news anchor blamed "the example of ultra-violent American society," on the air, for Liège. I heard it myself. (Rates of violent crime are actually much higher in Belgium than in the U.S., but never let the facts get in the way of a good anti-American rant, right?) EDIT: I don't know if we're responsible for the annual New Year's Eve car-burnings - "only" 1,200 this year - in France, but I'm sure someone can explain why we are.

I've seen comments this morning blaming American influence for Switzerland. (If that's true, Europeans ought to be asking why their moral fiber is too weak to resist that.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
If you could prove so with articles/researches etc. that'd be great.
I do have other things to do. It's all perfectly easy to find if you've been following the news over the last couple of weeks. But the fact that there are 90 guns for 100 people doesn't mean 90 people out of 100 own guns, because some people own more than one. Lots more than one.

New York's lowest homicide rate since 1963 was in the news over the last couple of days: they report this sort of thing at the end of every year. And similar numbers were reported a few years ago; it's just that 2012 was even better.

Don't get me wrong: we do need to tighten controls and address other things like mental health. But at least give us credit for getting some things right.

The number of mass shootings over the last few years, in the context of dramatically lower crime rates, suggests to me that the mass shooting problem is something different and more complicated. But piling on Americans for their awfulness - I'm not saying you did that but it does happen, a lot - every time something like Newtown happens is reprehensible and unhelpful.
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Last edited by Penn's Woods; January 3rd, 2013 at 05:14 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:41 PM   #18146
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Penn, an advice: lots of what comes from European news is BS. Many journalists and politicians are poseurs who'd say the dumbest things just to get some spotlights over their face.
And yes, they get attention, but just from the dumb share of population that you'll find in any country (often the same people you'll read in online newspaper comments).

There is something wrong going on in the US, but pointing that out without looking upon ourselves is a deliberate lack of consciousness, just to avoid thinking seriously about what WE should do in the first place.

So, just ignore them and move on.


I agree about the mass shoutings being more a social than a gun-ownership problem. Classic journalistic problem: stressing too much "how" and forgetting "why".
About guns, my personal opinion is that you should apply lots more control on that; but I'm saying this as I would address a friend, not a barbarian who's my duty to educate.
I may say more, but I'm seriously worried that my beliefs on this topic are really biased by those think-tanks of good-doers... so I prefer to listen instead of talking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I've seen comments this morning blaming American influence for Switzerland. (If that's true, Europeans ought to be asking why their moral fiber is too weak to resist that.)
And yep, that happens pretty often, not only about US issues. It's always another one's fault.
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Last edited by Wilhem275; January 3rd, 2013 at 05:47 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:46 PM   #18147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods
Assault rifles were used last night in Switzerland and last weekend in Amsterdam.

Gun ownership is DOWN in the U.S. from 70 to 50 percent. Crime rates in cities like New York are at their lowest point in my lifetime. (The murder rate in particular is about 15 percent of what it was 30 years ago.) I personally have not touched a gun in 35 years. (Or seen one, except the time I locked myself out of my apartment in the middle of the night - - and witnessed an arrest up the street. That gun was a pistol, held by the police officer...) But for way too many people in Europe, I am more culpable, simply by virtue of having committed the sin of being born in the U.S., than the actual criminals, and I'm sick of it.
New York was very dangeous in the past because it had a lot of mafia-like gang activities. This has a little to do with gun laws, since professional criminals have no problem to get what they want on the black market. It's not so easy to own legally a firearm in Italy but our mafia, camorra and 'ndrangheta are plenty of them and far west-like shooting especially in Neaples often make headlines. Some parts of Italy really need another Rudolph Giuliani but that wouldn't be happen anytime soon at least until mafia bosses and corrupt public administrators hold their hands together and in the most crime and decay-ridden areas the organized crime get even a popular consens since it allows poorer people to get an illegal employment. Mafia is also against the free market because it forces honest enterpreneurs to pay "protection fees" (pizzo) to mafiosi. Criminal enterpreneurs, who have a lot of illegal money to invest in legal businesses, become more competitive than the honest ones, who are forced to borrow money from banks to start a business. Politicians, judges, policemen who tried to destroy this ill system were either killed or force to live under armored escort. It's a sad, sad story

When someone (not professional criminal, aparently normal) shot someone with a legally-owned weapon because he's angry, drunk or drugged it's another story. It wouldn't have happened if he couldn't have bough his weapon legally, so firearms control has its benefits.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 08:32 PM   #18148
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Sigh. Here we go again. It's an annoying habit of Europeans to point the finger to the US, and to squeeck what a rotten society Americans live in when they've never even been in the States before. Clueless!
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 08:43 PM   #18149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
It's an annoying habit of Europeans to point the finger to the US
You often complain about Europeans generalizing about the US while you generalize a lot yourself.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 08:57 PM   #18150
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Originally Posted by mapman:cz View Post
Something as "please take the appropriate lane" comes to my mind.
It'll be something like this. Thanks for the help everyone
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:06 PM   #18151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post

You often complain about Europeans generalizing about the US while you generalize a lot yourself.
Only about countries I've been, in which I'm able to draw my own conclusions.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:09 PM   #18152
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Saying it's an annoying habit of "Europeans" is generalizing.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:14 PM   #18153
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Well, he surely does keep up with the stereotype
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:18 PM   #18154
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Quote:
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Saying it's an annoying habit of "Europeans" is generalizing.
You are European (sort of) and you tell us that Americans need to wake up. Have you been there?
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:24 PM   #18155
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You're generalizing by saying 'Europeans' in that sentence. Not all Europeans do that.

I was only trying to get a real discussion going here, but if your 'opponent' (in this case Penn's woods) says that I should search for stuff that supports his statement he obviously doesn't understand how discussions work...
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:33 PM   #18156
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You are European (sort of)
Sort of? I haven't moved to Antarctica or anything.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:37 PM   #18157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
You're generalizing by saying 'Europeans' in that sentence. Not all Europeans do that.

I was only trying to get a real discussion going here, but if your 'opponent' (in this case Penn's woods) says that I should search for stuff that supports his statement he obviously doesn't understand how discussions work...
Penn's Woods (my friend) understands things better in his own country than you ever will. More so, he is older than you, has more experience in life, and is very well updated through various media streams around the world. Not only Fox (right wing) or CNN (left).
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:40 PM   #18158
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Penn's Woods (my friend) understands things better in his own country than you ever will. More so, he is older than you, has more experience in life, and is very well updated through various media streams around the world. Not only Fox (right wing) or CNN (left).
... And how is that relevant to anything I said?

Is it forbidden to share wisdom? Then why wont he share his sources? Unless, of course, he is talking shit.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:46 PM   #18159
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In all honesty, I don't think he can be bothered having to defend himself and HIS country to a youth from Holland. I wouldn't anyway.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 10:00 PM   #18160
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That's probably the reason why everyone loves having a 'discussion' with you...
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