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Old January 23rd, 2013, 04:34 PM   #18661
Penn's Woods
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Originally Posted by Fatfield View Post
Yes staying in without full integration is an option which is our current status. The main stumbling block is, as always, money. We pay a hefty amount into the EU coiffeurs without gaining anything (visible) back. Most people equate this to be a drain on resources.

Another problem is immigration. There are those who want us to stop the amount of Poles, Romanians & Bulgarians from being able to come and work over here. We already have an illegal immigration problem so, rightly or wrongly, they're grouped together as the same problem.

Believe it or not, there are actually people in the south & south east of England who don't want monetary union because a picture of the Queen won't be on the Euro!

I think the outcome of the vote would be to maintain the status quo. I do honestly believe that full monetary integration will happen in the future and although I'm a royalist I really couldn't care less if Liz appeared on the Euro or not. However, the exchange rate would have to be in our favour for any of the main parties to even consider changing.

The longer our membership of the EU continues the more people will want more & more integration. We now even use the European Courts of Justice (when it suits us) to bash our own judicial system. As our cheese eat.... sorry, French cousins would say, c'est la vie & que sera sera.
Just found and skimmed the transcript: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...h-in-full.html

But "Qué será será" is Spanish. :-) (In French, it'd have to be "ce qui sera...")

Haven't read your comments yet; I'll do so now.

EDIT: Now having read your comments: (1) What I meant by asking whether the status quo was an option was that I thought there was fairly strong pressure from some Continental powers and politicians to centralize more power in EU institutions and that those people would insist that Britain either go along with that or get out. (A brief glance at the Telegraph shows such reactions to the speech from a couple of foreign ministers, including the German one; but then Merkel took a much more compromising tone.) (2) Note that Cameron's ruled out joining the euro.

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Old January 23rd, 2013, 04:37 PM   #18662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatfield

Yes staying in without full integration is an option which is our current status. The main stumbling block is, as always, money. We pay a hefty amount into the EU coiffeurs without gaining anything (visible) back. Most people equate this to be a drain on resources.

Another problem is immigration. There are those who want us to stop the amount of Poles, Romanians & Bulgarians from being able to come and work over here. We already have an illegal immigration problem so, rightly or wrongly, they're grouped together as the same problem.

Believe it or not, there are actually people in the south & south east of England who don't want monetary union because a picture of the Queen won't be on the Euro!

I think the outcome of the vote would be to maintain the status quo. I do honestly believe that full monetary integration will happen in the future and although I'm a royalist I really couldn't care less if Liz appeared on the Euro or not. However, the exchange rate would have to be in our favour for any of the main parties to even consider changing.

The longer our membership of the EU continues the more people will want more & more integration. We now even use the European Courts of Justice (when it suits us) to bash our own judicial system. As our cheese eat.... sorry, French cousins would say, c'est la vie & que sera sera.
We have people that want to ban kebab and cous cous, but not for health reasons, just because it's related to an "evil" culture! But if pizza and pasta are exported in the world it's fine, because we (not only Italians, but westerners in general) are superior to the rest of the world and we must export our culture while others... should stay in the jungle with monkeys or in the desert with camels and stay away from us! (Literal speech of an Italian politician).
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 04:38 PM   #18663
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
No. I thought Italystf meant "claim," in the sense of Bossi's telling the public that he was doing something (hiring dialect-speakers?). (I don't think I'd use "pretend" even in that meaning, although the difference is subtle: if you claim to be doing something, it might be true; if you pretend to be doing something, you're lying. So it would be safer - more neutral - for, say, a journalist to use "claim" in a sentence like that.)
I think he meant "demand", or "oblige" because "pretendere" in Italian means that: it is a so-called "false friend". Bossi wanted to force legislation into admitting as civil servants only those who spoke local languages.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 04:48 PM   #18664
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Got it.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 04:49 PM   #18665
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Most of the time, the issue is not really local dialects (that were never formalized and standardized as stand-alone languages first place) but to find some proxy that would allow people from an area to exclude others from coveted public sector jobs or certain professional orders.

Job market in Italy has a lot of structural problems, and has had them for 20 years, not only number of regular "career-bound" jobs but also issues like reverse ageism etc. Then, part of the population might be tempted to accept the idea the real problem is really "all those people coming from Puglia to work here" (or immigrants).

Sometimes localism in Italy can go to extreme lengths, a semi-famous politician once suggested Italian armed forces should be "regionalized" as in people from southern regions having "no ability or culture" to deal with demands of Alpine infantry regiments because there isn't much snow in Palermo or Cagliari.

Finally, you have the issues of certain small valleys where some small, but extremely vocal, cadre of activists try to create ridiculous things like some valley identity that is full of buzzwords disguised as a way to keep lucrative money from ski resorts "in the valley only".

This is mostly a folcloric thing though. Sometimes, however, people take advantage of merely symbolic platforms and get elected to local offices as "protest" candidates, and then they become a PITA to get things done.

The only real linguistic-ethnic mistake was for the Italian state to have had caved in to tirolese terrorists in the 1970s. That was a big error, impossible to reverse now since they get to keep almost all tax money, while receiving still the benefits of national services without paying for it (including an extremely flawed provision that doesn't reduce their handouts according to any 'fair share' of the province on Italian national debt)
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 04:56 PM   #18666
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I quote every single word of Suburbanist's.

As for the small valley identity, I read that at the next elections there will be also a party named "Vallecamonica zona franca", whose agenda only covers one issue: they just want to institute a special economic zone in Valle Camonica (the valley north of Lake Iseo), just like the Livigno one. That is to say "we only look at our small garden, and to hell with the rest".
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 05:06 PM   #18667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza
I quote every single word of Suburbanist's.

As for the small valley identity, I read that at the next elections there will be also a party named "Vallecamonica zona franca", whose agenda only covers one issue: they just want to institute a special economic zone in Valle Camonica (the valley north of Lake Iseo), just like the Livigno one. That is to say "we only look at our small garden, and to hell with the rest".
Livigno special tax status should be removed, it's a free pass for smuggling (you buy a lot of stuff there for cheap because there is no VAT and you resell in Italy at the black market, border controls are a joke).
It made sense 100 years ago when there were no roads to Livigno, but not today when they get a load of money from winter tourism.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 05:08 PM   #18668
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And i quote every single word of italysft's.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:13 PM   #18669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
But "Qué será será" is Spanish. :-) (In French, it'd have to be "ce qui sera...")
You see, I told you we weren't very good at doing European.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:29 PM   #18670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
EDIT: Now having read your comments: (1) What I meant by asking whether the status quo was an option was that I thought there was fairly strong pressure from some Continental powers and politicians to centralize more power in EU institutions and that those people would insist that Britain either go along with that or get out. (A brief glance at the Telegraph shows such reactions to the speech from a couple of foreign ministers, including the German one; but then Merkel took a much more compromising tone.)
There is and to be honest I'd expect a reaction along those lines. Although as usual a compromise will be made. The fact of the matter is we both (EU & Britain) need each other. Whether Europeans & Brits think the same is a moot point.

However, when all Europeans realise they have to speak English as their natural language, drive on the left hand side of the road, use the £ and swear allegiance to Liz then the sooner we can have a fully integrated EU.

PS We can exchange the above for French & Italian food, German beer, Spanish sun and Dutch, Scandanavian & Eastern European women. Maybe then the EU will have reached Utopia.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:38 PM   #18671
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Finally, you have the issues of certain small valleys where some small, but extremely vocal, cadre of activists try to create ridiculous things like some valley identity that is full of buzzwords disguised as a way to keep lucrative money
Wales?
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:56 PM   #18672
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Meanwhile in Russia

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Old January 23rd, 2013, 06:59 PM   #18673
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Wales?
If you're not nice, they'll secede!
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 07:19 PM   #18674
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Meanwhile in Russia
Was that a dog or a kid?
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 07:21 PM   #18675
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A kid, it was in online newspapers in Italy, too.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 07:50 PM   #18676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Young people usually have a quite good English knowledge, at least in the written form. The pronunciation is more problematic.
I read that the worst in Europe are the Spanish, the best Dutch and Scandinavians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kn...ish_EU_map.svg
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 08:32 PM   #18677
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 08:33 PM   #18678
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Go ahead, comment.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 08:35 PM   #18679
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Ok, you asked for a reply: That guy is a retard.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 08:36 PM   #18680
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Indeed he is. Heck, that's putting it mildly. But why would you assume I (or most Americans) would think otherwise?
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