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Old February 5th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #19101
italystf
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
I disagree. If you don't like what you hear, you should just ignore it. I don't feel inferior just because someone told me so (and if I do, I should get more self-confidence or stop being strange, if I am).
Ok, i can ignore someone that tell me that my haircut is ugly, that I'm not smart or that my political view sucks. But would you ignore someone who regularily harasses you verbally, for example your boss that want to persuade you to quit the job just because he doesn't like you? I don't think so. Human dignity is a right and must be preserved.
And how would you justify a politician that openly discriminates certain categories while the constitution of the country who represents (and get a shitload of money from) says that everybody is equal in front of the law?
Legalizing insult and racism means removing legal protection to "weaker" categories, such minorities, etc...
Verbal hate may degenerate in other kind of hate. If you hear people that openly say that blacks, jews, women, gays, etc... are inferior to other you may think that is also normal to discriminate them in the society, so not hiring them, emarginating them,...
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Old February 5th, 2013, 09:04 PM   #19102
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Tell that to these *******s in the Middle East who get all upset and weary about a few cartoons in a Danish newspaper... They are offended and respond with violence and anger...
Their responses are absolutely ridiculous, but mind you, I don't like those cartoons either, because I don't see the point of their provoking. But I'm for free speech in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Ok, i can ignore someone that tell me that my haircut is ugly, that I'm not smart or that my political view sucks. But would you ignore someone who regularily harasses you verbally, for example your boss that want to persuade you to quit the job just because he doesn't like you? I don't think so. Human dignity is a right and must be preserved.
And how would you justify a politician that openly discriminates certain categories while the constitution of the country who represents (and get a shitload of money from) says that everybody is equal in front of the law?
Legalizing insult and racism means removing legal protection to "weaker" categories, such minorities, etc...
Verbal hate may degenerate in other kind of hate. If you hear people that openly say that blacks, jews, women, gays, etc... are inferior to other you may think that is also normal to discriminate them in the society, so not hiring them, emarginating them,...
Saying that blacks etc. are inferior won't necessarily lead to their discrimination. But if discrimination happens, that's not (free) speech any more and should be sanctioned. Blacks, Jews, women, gays etc. have a possibility to ignore them or call whites, non-Jews, men, straights etc. inferior and laugh about it. As for bosses at jobs, it's a complex matter and hiring or firing someone easily also depends on a country's policy.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 09:17 PM   #19103
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As for bosses at jobs, it's a complex matter and hiring or firing someone easily also depends on a country's policy.
In many countries the boss cannot fire an employee with no valid reason: violation of basic duties, cheating, stealing, expired contract...
So, many employers who want to reduce personnel or get rid of a worker that they don't like personally but never didn't anything bad use the weapon of mobbing. It's very sad to have to chose between tolerating everyday emargination and humiliations or not having money to support your family.
Sometimes defamation may fall into the category of "unfair competition" when you attack rival businesses to steal them customers.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 10:54 PM   #19104
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Oy.

I was really just thinking out loud: if the issue in the question of this Canadian Super Bowl contest winner was that U.S. law prohibits entering the country with a criminal conviction, no matter how minor or silly it may seem, and I don't know that that's what U.S. law says, then what would that mean for - for example - someone convicted in Europe (sorry, Rebasepoiss - the only way I could have expressed that without "generalizing" would be singling out one or two countries in particular, or inventorying every country with, say, blasphemy laws) for publishing an offensive cartoon (just for example, and if that's something one could be convicted for in the country in question), could conceivably be prevented from entering the U.S. for an act that would be protected here by the First Amendment. Which presents, at this end, the question of whether U.S. Immigration would be violating the First Amendment by doing so. I don't know what the answer to that question is.

That's all.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 10:57 PM   #19105
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Originally Posted by keber View Post
Can I burn US dollar note in USA? How not? It is just one dollar. What century is this?
You can certainly burn a flag as an act of protest.
If it's true that you can't burn a dollar bill (because...I don't know...you're corrupting the money supply?), then in my opinion doing it as an act of protest should be legal.
Just like saying you don't like Queen Beatrix's hat should be.

Not that I'd dream of doing any of those things (well, maybe the hat, but I'm outside her jurisdiction anyway...)
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Old February 5th, 2013, 11:01 PM   #19106
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
In Italy is forbidden to insult the flag, the constitution, to pronunce hate speech against certain ethnic groups, religions or homosexuals, to apologize fascism and nazism (but, strangely, not communism or other regimes), to display nazi-fascist symbols, to defamate or insult people, to educate other to break the law.
Lack of free speech is not democracy, but also tolerating hate speech isn't.
I think every European country, as well other democracies such the USA, Canada, Japan, Australia,... have such laws.
I see your point, but once you start permitting the government to start deciding what's permitted....

The US has hate-crimes laws: yelling insults at someone because he's gay isn't illegal, beating him up because he's gay is. Because beating someone up isn't speech or expression.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #19107
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
You responded like an attention *****, as usually.
THE ****?
And that goes for Keoki too.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #19108
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Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Violence is an action, not speech, to begin with. My opinion is somewhere between that of you and italystf. Calling for violence shouldn't be tolerated IMO, but insulting others should, even if it's not a nice thing to do (I'm talking about real life, of course, not this forum).
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!
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Old February 5th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #19109
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Depend what kind of insult. If you scream "stupid" to someone who crossed the road in front of you or spilled some drink on your clothes or to a footballer who miss a goal is normal, I don't say that you should be punished for that.
But if you regularily humiliate a collegue because you want persuade him to fire himself or you advocate that categories such ethnic minorities or LGBT are inferiors to the "majority" this is unacceptable. I don't say you should be jailed for hate speech, but maybe fined in proportion of the social harm causated by your speech.
Or if you regularly go out of your way to call everyone who disagrees with you a troll or an attention *****.

Sorry I dropped back into this thread. *******s. But I'm the problem....
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Old February 5th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #19110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
You responded like an attention *****, as usually.
THE ****?
And that goes for Keoki too.
I thought I was on your ignore list.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 11:42 PM   #19111
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Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post

You can certainly burn a flag as an act of protest.
If it's true that you can't burn a dollar bill (because...I don't know...you're corrupting the money supply?), then in my opinion doing it as an act of protest should be legal.
Just like saying you don't like Queen Beatrix's hat should be.

Not that I'd dream of doing any of those things (well, maybe the hat, but I'm outside her jurisdiction anyway...)
Since I collect coins I read in the Italian numismatic forum "Lamoneta" a debate if it was illegal or not to damage money (like writing on bills or pressing 2-eurocent coins to make souvenir medals). It appeared that in Italy isn't illegal but cash damaged volountairly can't be exchange at the bank. I never heard of people burning a bill for protest, too. I read about an American who paved his floor with cents. If the problem is the decreasing of the money supply they would also ban collecting circulating coins that would be absurd (in the eurozone there is a large variety of coin and many people hoard them, especially the rare one).

Back to the topic I think it's more acceptable to burn a flag rather to support racism or defamate individuals.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 01:19 AM   #19112
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racist slurs are idiot and idiot, but they should be amply tolerated, without any restriction, if they are only slurs.

No group in society should have ANY rights for special protection against criticism, stereotypization and the likes, even if, again, that is stupid.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 01:36 AM   #19113
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racist slurs are idiot and idiot
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Old February 6th, 2013, 01:39 AM   #19114
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
racist slurs are idiot and idiot, but they should be amply tolerated, without any restriction, if they are only slurs.

No group in society should have ANY rights for special protection against criticism, stereotypization and the likes, even if, again, that is stupid.
Criticism and stereotypization against certain groups, especially with joking intentions, is something VERY different than the true ethnic-motivated hate.

Meanwhile in Vukovar, Croatia, local citizens and war veterans complain about Croatian-Serbian bilingual signs: "We fough a war for independence, not for bilinguism". Very childish if you ask me. Leave your cave and open your eyes guys, a lot of places in Europe have linguistic minorities and go along with that.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 09:57 AM   #19115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
racist slurs are idiot and idiot, but they should be amply tolerated, without any restriction, if they are only slurs.

No group in society should have ANY rights for special protection against criticism, stereotypization and the likes, even if, again, that is stupid.
I couldn't agree more! Well said!
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Old February 6th, 2013, 10:46 AM   #19116
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Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Meanwhile in Vukovar, Croatia, local citizens and war veterans complain about Croatian-Serbian bilingual signs: "We fough a war for independence, not for bilinguism". Very childish if you ask me. Leave your cave and open your eyes guys, a lot of places in Europe have linguistic minorities and go along with that.
We have lots of towns and even regions with bilingual sighns in Croatia.
But Vukovar is a bit specific don't you think so?


Last edited by KHS; February 6th, 2013 at 05:08 PM.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 04:08 PM   #19117
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A swath of snow across the Netherlands resulted in severe traffic congestion on some motorways, with several traffic jams exceeding 30 kilometer in length. Places with no snow had no more congestion than usual (varying from nothing to severe).

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Old February 6th, 2013, 04:20 PM   #19118
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It snows here as well.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 04:24 PM   #19119
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10°C and shining sun here in Brescia
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Old February 6th, 2013, 04:36 PM   #19120
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10°C and shining sun here in Brescia
Heavy rain since this morning here in Friuli.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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