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Old March 23rd, 2013, 04:09 AM   #19701
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broccolli View Post

And execly the same was happening to our children nad women during the WW2.
I never denied that. And not only in Yugoslavia, also in Albania, Greece, Lybia and East Africa.
I talked about communism b\c there was an ongoing discussion about it, but it's obvious for me that fascism was the same.
Everything is clear, so no further discussions are needed.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 04:42 AM   #19702
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I agree all those systems are totalitarian system. (communism, fascism, nazism)



But there is another thing. You see all those slovenian partizans (99% of them) were just simple peasant boys, most of them from villages. Those boys didnt know anything about political systems nothing about communism, they just resisted to the occupiers so they joined partizans, resistance organization. And that is it. That part of our history is clean as a whistle. Those men and women just stood up for themselves because they were tired of represion and kilings commited by ocupiers on slovenian theritory (german or italian in some small part also croatian).
But it is also true that communist later exploited partizan resisting organization to promote themselves, with one goal to become the main political party, and the main and only political player in country.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 12:24 PM   #19703
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I don't think nobody is justifying one crime with other.

What I hate is that while any person professing to be fascist or neonazi is mostly seen as a clown/stupid/out of his-her mind, communism still has mainstream acceptance. People talk of "true communist state" have never been implemented and keep discussing it as if it were possible, whereas no one would serious suggest fascism just didn't work well as it should by its books because it wasn't properly implemented in Italy.

Examples we are discussing: there are streets named after communist dictators in France, Italy and some other countries, whereas you won't find any street named after Mussolini, Hitler or Hiroito in the Eastern block.

I'd actually have all those street names removed.

There is also the case of Germany, where they have streets named after Karl Marx (like the 3rd busiest thoroughfare of Berlin). Could you imagine a street named after Gobbels in Poland?

In any case, Italy was twice affected by the major players on WW2. First, it went through a fascist dictatorship. Later, 2/3 of its territory were brutally occupied by Germans in a way no better than what they did in France (though not as violent as they did in their occupied Eastern territories), including mass killing of whole village populations as reprisal. Meanwhile, Allied forces gave the mafiosi a free reign in business in the 1/3 that was liberated earlier, creating problems that last to this day.

Then, they expelled hundreds of thousands of ethnic Italians living in Dalmatia for as long as 4 centuries, since the times of Venice prominence on the Adriatic, and ethnically cleansed the whole area.

It should be noticed some harcore Italian communist operatives wanted, in the immediate aftermath of WW2, to expel all ethnic Germans from Alto Adige and Tyrol as revenge.

Everything much complicated, but my point remains: there shouldn't be streets named after Tito, Stalin and the likes.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 12:43 PM   #19704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
In Italy a mayor can't be elected more than 2 consecutive times (2x5 years). Only exception are small municipalities (<5000ppl) in the autonomous region of Friuli-Venezia Giulia, where the limit is 3 times (15 years).
Are you sure? Giovanbattista Sinicropi was mayor of Sant'Alessio in Calabria for 43 consecutive years. And I remember something about a mayor in Emilia Romagna who was in charge for a comparable amount of time.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 12:55 PM   #19705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't think nobody is justifying one crime with other.

What I hate is that while any person professing to be fascist or neonazi is mostly seen as a clown/stupid/out of his-her mind, communism still has mainstream acceptance. People talk of "true communist state" have never been implemented and keep discussing it as if it were possible, whereas no one would serious suggest fascism just didn't work well as it should by its books because it wasn't properly implemented in Italy.

Examples we are discussing: there are streets named after communist dictators in France, Italy and some other countries, whereas you won't find any street named after Mussolini, Hitler or Hiroito in the Eastern block.

I'd actually have all those street names removed.

There is also the case of Germany, where they have streets named after Karl Marx (like the 3rd busiest thoroughfare of Berlin). Could you imagine a street named after Gobbels in Poland?

In any case, Italy was twice affected by the major players on WW2. First, it went through a fascist dictatorship. Later, 2/3 of its territory were brutally occupied by Germans in a way no better than what they did in France (though not as violent as they did in their occupied Eastern territories), including mass killing of whole village populations as reprisal. Meanwhile, Allied forces gave the mafiosi a free reign in business in the 1/3 that was liberated earlier, creating problems that last to this day.

Then, they expelled hundreds of thousands of ethnic Italians living in Dalmatia for as long as 4 centuries, since the times of Venice prominence on the Adriatic, and ethnically cleansed the whole area.

It should be noticed some harcore Italian communist operatives wanted, in the immediate aftermath of WW2, to expel all ethnic Germans from Alto Adige and Tyrol as revenge.

Everything much complicated, but my point remains: there shouldn't be streets named after Tito, Stalin and the likes.
I agree everything but there should be made some precisations:

- Karl Marx was a philosopher and died decades before communists took the power with the Russian revolution. He talked about communism as an alternative economical system to replace the, equally wrong, wild and unregulated capitalism that existed in the industrial Europe of the XIX century, where women and children worked like slaves in terrible conditions and with a very low salary. He never wrote about gulag and so... Also Friederich Nietzsche is often associated with the nazism because of his ubermensch theory, but again he lived well before this regime and never talked about invading Europe or exterminating a race.

- The problems of Southern Italy date far more back in the past than the Allied occupation in 1943-45. Just after Italian unification in 1861 this area was fare more underdeveloped than the northern-central part, it has social unrest problems (brigandage) and mafia started to exist in those years.

- Is true that some Italian communists wanted to expell Germans from Alto Adige (and if done it would have been a crime like the expulsion of Italians from Istria). But it's also true that in the 50s and 60s many Sudtiroler separatists committed bomb attacks against Italian institutions and killed some Italian cops. To avoid an armed conflict, the Italian government started giving economical privileges to Alto Adige, that last even today. And some Sudtirolers still celebrate those terrorists and murderers like heroes.

I agree 100% that we should see history from a neutral point of view (i.e. oppressive regimes are always wrong, doesn't matter if they're right or left) and that streets named after dictators and war criminals should be removed.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 01:00 PM   #19706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Are you sure? Giovanbattista Sinicropi was mayor of Sant'Alessio in Calabria for 43 consecutive years. And I remember something about a mayor in Emilia Romagna who was in charge for a comparable amount of time.
Don't know, maybe every region has its own rules or rules changed often in the years. I know that in my town few years ago the mayor couldn't candidate himself the 3rd time.
Or maybe there are exception for very small municipalities (Sant'Alessio in Aspromonte has 300 inhabitants), since they don't have many possible candidates.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 01:14 PM   #19707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broccolli View Post


But it is also true that communist later exploited partizan resisting organization to promote themselves, with one goal to become the main political party, and the main and only political player in country.
while partisan resistance was honourable, I think it was from the very begining intiated by communists with the goal of communist revolution.



Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I agree 100% that we should see history from a neutral point of view (i.e. oppressive regimes are always wrong, doesn't matter if they're right or left) and that streets named after dictators and war criminals should be removed.
that
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 01:28 PM   #19708
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Meanwhile in Munich, Bavaria...


"Rock mi" flashmob in den Riem Arcaden in München
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 03:06 PM   #19709
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while partisan resistance was honourable, I think it was from the very begining intiated by communists with the goal of communist revolution.
Most of people (i would say 99%) who joined partizans didnt know that. They werent aware of this "plan".

And like i said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broccolli View Post


But there is another thing. You see all those slovenian partizans (99% of them) were just simple peasant boys, most of them from villages. Those boys didnt know anything about political systems nothing about communism, they just resisted to the occupiers so they joined partizans, resistance organization. And that is it.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 03:17 PM   #19710
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....

Last edited by Broccolli; January 19th, 2014 at 04:15 PM.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 05:44 PM   #19711
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This sentence from Wikipedia sums it up about Tito:
Quote:
While his presidency has been criticized as authoritarian,[9][10][11] due to his successful economic and diplomatic policies, Tito was "seen by most as a benevolent dictator,"[12] and was a popular public figure both in Yugoslavia and abroad.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 06:33 PM   #19712
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^ I could quote italystf again...
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 07:06 PM   #19713
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That's how it was, not how it should've been.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 07:18 PM   #19714
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 07:18 PM   #19715
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Quote:
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Meanwhile in Munich, Bavaria...


"Rock mi" flashmob in den Riem Arcaden in München
i adore these flashmob things! that is probably the most positive invention related to amusment in modern times. it always makes me happy watching it
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 08:54 PM   #19716
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i adore these flashmob things! that is probably the most positive invention related to amusment in modern times. it always makes me happy watching it
I feel quite the opposite. I don't like unwanted shows, as much as I don't like people who are trying to sell me something I don't want. I like music and ballet, but I must want to see them.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 10:30 PM   #19717
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...

Last edited by Broccolli; January 19th, 2014 at 04:16 PM.
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Old March 23rd, 2013, 10:37 PM   #19718
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It is also true that, he was really respected by all world leaders.

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Old March 23rd, 2013, 11:04 PM   #19719
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Maybe the owner tuned the car
It's not exactly a convertible, but a side-vertible. Maybe this way you can drive with the wind in your hair, even on a rainy day.
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Old March 24th, 2013, 12:35 AM   #19720
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Strange weather in northern Europe. Spring doesn't come. A fierce easterly wind originating from the arctic bringing wind chills below -10 today. The Dutch, Danish and German media I read are all complaing about the "verrückte Frühling".
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