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Greater Manchester Transport Projects Transport Matters For Greater Manchester and Surrounding Areas



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Old August 14th, 2005, 12:43 AM   #61
Jongeman
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It would take a major shift in transport policy to achieve an underground metro line. We just don't do public transport in this country (not really) and what we do do, has to make a profit for someone. This is a fundamental mistake (oh no! I can feel a rant coming on)

On one level, I'm as eager as everybody else to see metrolink phase 3 started properly, and as frustrated that it hasn't already. But, the problem I have with it is that we couldn't have asked for a cheaper transport system. It's embarrassing, take Old Trafford station. This should be a showcase, an architectural delight (!) for the scores of visitors to Manchester on their way to and from Old Trafford LCCC and ManU. Yet it's a disgusting public toilet of a place. Just one example.

Manchester is a huge place with well over 2 million people, as we all appreciate, but Metrolink is a system that would be better suited to a much smaller city. You'd expect to see it in Mannheim, Stuttgart or Bristol. This is why it's hopelessly overcrowded. It's hopelessly inadequate.

No offence to anyone who works for metrolink. I'm commenting on public transport funding really, and not slagging off metrolink per se.

Last edited by Jongeman; August 14th, 2005 at 12:57 AM.
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Old August 14th, 2005, 08:13 AM   #62
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Why oh why does this Oxford Road / undreground / trams come up every 6 months - I cannot be arsed explaining for the 800th time why is ain't a goer - but forget it, not going to happen.
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Old August 15th, 2005, 06:57 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrolink
Why oh why does this Oxford Road / undreground / trams come up every 6 months - I cannot be arsed explaining for the 800th time why is ain't a goer - but forget it, not going to happen.
Suppose because it seems to make perfect sense. It's an incredibly busy artery and most users are already choosing public modes. Therefore a more efficient method of delivering the public mode (i.e. switching from buses to rail) makes sense.

Obviously we can't summon up the confidence in the UK to say to GMPTE:

1. Yes - here is the funding you need to do something that obviously makes sense.

2. No - you don't have to give in to the whinging bus companies along the route. Of course they would moan - wouldn't you! But that doesn't mean you have to change the plan.

3. Yes - people using the route will be happy to face disruption to their journeys, IF it is going to make more of a difference than all that crazy paving and tree plantation did in Rusholme.

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Old August 15th, 2005, 08:38 AM   #64
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Right, for the last time.

The idea (in this country at least) is to attract people from cars to public transport, be that buses, trams, trains or underground, how many people along that route are going to be attracted out of their cars into a new form of public transport - not many.

Money would only be invested in areas where there is not already a good public transport provision - why invest somewhere that doesn't really need it (the buses do a perfectly good job) when other places are crying out for the cash.

Given that this would not be a good case for government funding - i.e. very low converstion from car to public transport, and the route already has an excellent public transport infrastucture funding for an underground or trams would be a nightmare.

Also, the route, there are far too many 'pinch-points' for a tram to go along there - are you suggesting a tram run along Wilmslow Road in Rusholme?

Given that there must be about a bus ever 1 minute (at least) down that route, would people really wait for a tram that is say every 6 minutes, to pay more, for an equally long journey - the tram ain't going to be overtaking many buses along Wilmslow Road - the road simply is not wide enough for segregated running, and if you are thinking about an underground forget it.

Why on earth would we spend the huge (and I mean huge) amounts of money that would be required to fund a route that is already extremely well serviced by buses?

I'd suggest that people promoting this route are simply doing so for the kudos effect, rather that to improve public transport - how many people would be attracted out of the car onto (slow) trams that don't already use the buses.

Last point, an underground requires about 10,000 passengers per hour along the corridor to make it anything like viable, how many people would be using this corridor for about 6 months of the year when students are not in town?


Seriously, forget grand transport projects that only have a benifit of raising the kudos of the city, leave that to the Brummies, if you want a good INTEGRATED public transport system in the Manchester region this is simply not part of it, the spending that would be required could be spent a million times better elsewhere.

Buses are a very important part of our transport system - don't forget that, trams have a place in Manchester's public transport, bu to be honest, buses will always have a bigger part to play.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 12:38 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrolink
Right, for the last time.

The idea (in this country at least) is to attract people from cars to public transport, be that buses, trams, trains or underground, how many people along that route are going to be attracted out of their cars into a new form of public transport - not many.
.
Try telling that to someone who spends an hour every morning doing just a few miles of Oxford/Wilmslow Road. It's a joke most week days - and I've spent many a night wondering why the hell I'm standing around waiting for a bus when a brisk 30 minute walk would have me in town without the disgusting stench of an Oxford Road bus on my clothes for the rest of the evening.

Then again, I've spent hours in my life (cumulatively) fannying about on the Eccles line wondering where the wonderful folk at GMPTE got their "every 12 minutes" line from - not to mention trying to work out garbled tannoy announcements.

And don't even get me started on those double-trams which always seem to miraculously appear an hour after rush hour. Grrrrr.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 12:50 AM   #66
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Aye. So bloody what if a tube down Oxford Road wouldn't make economic sense considering the buses? I remember something from not far back where Kurt was in full agreeance about how good public transport should be a right and not a privilege. And you harped on about how it's ridiculous that the Metrolink was almost canned due to "not being economically viable".

Make your mind up. You're either for a principal or against it. You can't just be for something because you develop a boner for trams.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:03 PM   #67
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Oxford Road has surpassed saturation point for traffic. Whenever I have the misfourtune of getting a 142 from Piccadilly to Withington it'll be half an hour before I see the Holy Name.

Kurt you can't say it's alright cos there are tons of buses, they clot the place up. UK North, Finglands, Bullocks, Stagecoach all vying for attention on this one stretch of road. Think about how filthy the air must be on Oxford Road when you have hundreds of cars and buses sitting there. A high speed underground line would be expensive, how about a much cheaper elevated metrolink line? Need one down Deansgate too, that's bumper to bumper 24/7 though at least it's not packed with kenyan Magic Buses that are older than your gran.

Though an Oxford/Wilmslow Road elevated line would probably fuck up St Peters Square if it were to join onto the other lines directly. We could replace Elizabeth House with some kind of elevated terminus.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 01:19 PM   #68
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An elevated line would never happen. Would absolutly ruin the city if we had these.

What about a very long travelator on the pavement?????
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Old August 16th, 2005, 02:46 PM   #69
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I do feel very cynical about transport in the UK. Local and National government seem to hate cars but like the money they can squeeze out of them, and are all talk and no trousers when it comes to public transport. Unless it's in London. Bah.

A Metrolink university line would be absolutely brilliant. Mind you I think it would good if there was more student accommodation near campus.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 06:03 PM   #70
Jongeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrolink
Why oh why does this Oxford Road / undreground / trams come up every 6 months - I cannot be arsed explaining for the 800th time why is ain't a goer - but forget it, not going to happen.
You sound like you have a moratorium on other people's views......I didn't realise that this was an official GMPTE/Metrolink website.
The reasons you give are well known. Just so happens that not everybody agrees, because we have a serious problem with transport provision and funding, nationally. Not only is funding inadequate, but so it the whole ethos of mobility in the UK.


I take issue with the statement that undergrounds have to attract 10,000 passengers an hour to be viable. In what way viable? Financially viable? Go and tell that to the Dutch/French. Amsterdam's sneltrams and Vancouver's Skytrain don't carry anywhere near that number.
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Old August 16th, 2005, 09:19 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrolink
Why oh why does this Oxford Road / undreground / trams come up every 6 months - I cannot be arsed explaining for the 800th time why is ain't a goer - but forget it, not going to happen.
That's what they said about space travel....
eermmm didn't you only register this month? hmmmm...
Cynics don't make this world go round, they only give the optimists something to strive against.

Roll on Oxford Road line!
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Old August 18th, 2005, 12:53 PM   #72
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Good letter in the MEN today if i do say so.

Have a look at the Birmingham Transport thread those who propose an underground down Oxford Road - gives an idea of what you'll get for your money - i.e. £2bn for 1 line with 2 stops.

If this is something you are wanting to pursue then fair enough, but the reason I am not in favour, or the PTE, is because there are better places that this kind of investment could be spent.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 08:23 PM   #73
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It'll look good though, presentation and all that, and when you're on it you'll feel like you're in a big city.
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Old August 18th, 2005, 11:53 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrolink
Good letter in the MEN today if i do say so.

Have a look at the Birmingham Transport thread those who propose an underground down Oxford Road - gives an idea of what you'll get for your money - i.e. £2bn for 1 line with 2 stops.

If this is something you are wanting to pursue then fair enough, but the reason I am not in favour, or the PTE, is because there are better places that this kind of investment could be spent.
People aren't saying that a huge pool of existing cash should be sidelined for an underground line down Oxford Road. People aren't even saying that this should be the next thing that GMPTE should aim for once they've got Phase 3 sorted out.

What we are saying is that if the UK is serious about creating an integrated public transport system, then it should consider things like sorting horrendous clogged arteries such as Oxford Road in our major cities.

Your view, which seems to be that students and proles should carry on using the buses on Oxford Road forever is one view. Another view is that if Glasgow and Newcastle built its own underground systems decades ago - proving such a thing is possible - then why is the discussion of such a project in England's so-called "second city" branded ridiculous?
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Old August 19th, 2005, 12:07 AM   #75
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He tugs over trams. That's why.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 12:17 AM   #76
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Some claim his tugging in fact powers the Metrolink network.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 12:22 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by caw123
Some claim his tugging in fact powers the Metrolink network.
If he powers the metrolink then you must power the internet...
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Old August 19th, 2005, 01:25 PM   #78
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Hamnet and others, my view is that an underground is simply not going to happen along Oxford Road, absolutely no chance, no matter how an attractive option it may appear.

Since the costs would be so high - and there are a few negatives about using this route, e.g. Didsbury has a tram line planned, an underground would have very few stops (due to costs), the patronage would be extremely seasonal - I was down in Fallowfield yesterday, it was dead, apart from when the students are here, how many locals would use that route, remembering the proposed tram line from Didsbury.

The reason I am 'negative' about this possibility is not because I don't think that it would be a 'nice to have' but simply as it has not got a chance in hell off happening during my life time (I am 29).

Fair play to those who say that route needs inproving, maybe it does during the student time, however, in reality, I don't think an underground will be seen as an option, but much more likely possibly using Wilmslow Road as a 2 way bus lane, and Upper Brook Street as a car road.

However, those promoting such as scheme should consider the costs of this scheme, and what possible benifits it would bring about.


P.S. Someone mentioned some cities that don't carry 10k passengers per hour on their undergrounds - I'd hazard a guess that the funding of public transport in those cities is not the same method as used in the UK.

P.P.S. If you really want to start to promote things like an underground, I'd suggest that promotion would need to start at a much 'lower' level, i.e. convience the general public of the need for investment in public transport, in such a way that governments actually start to listen - similar to the back on track campaign, but on a much wider scale - until such a time, I really cannot see the public accepting huge amounts of muney being invested on public transport - after all, at the moment people are whinging about high petrol prices, not the fact that they have shit public transport as an alternative - until this reverses hopes for an underground will remain that, just hopes, in my opinion.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 01:31 PM   #79
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But the Northern Line is dead outside zones 1 and 2 after morning and evening rush hour. Besides, the Wilmslow Road corridor is rarely dead. People in South Manc choose their bus ride on the bus company, not what bus comes first. Students generally get the Magic Bus or Ralph Bullock due to student fares. People wanting to be somewhere reliably quick get a stagecoach. People who aren't fucked get the Finglands. During the summer, Wilmslow Road's bus services are anything BUT dead. I've used the route since I first got a bus so regular experience comes into account.

And I believe people were getting annoyed with your holier than thou attitude as you displayed with your "why oh why" rant. Does the Tram King not like debate about other modes of rail transport?
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Old August 19th, 2005, 01:47 PM   #80
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Ok, I apologise for my rants, I have been working nights and have been knackered, no excuse, but all the same, I apologise.

No, I don't have a problem with other forms of transport, I think that an underground is very suited to many places, such as London, Lyon, Paris Barcelona. However, not Manchester. We simply (in my opinion) do not have the density of population, that generates the traffic required, that would mean an underground would be required.

As we have the very tight financial pressures on transport in this country I think we need to have to use a bit of judgement as to what is desirable, and was is actually possible.

Having been thinking about this, if you wanted to run a high volume mass transit system along this route, the option that would be much more affordable would be to branch of the Didsbury - Stockport line (near Didsbury Tesco's), come along A34 (very wide road and segregated running possible), across to Upper Brook Street (bit tight here and getting under the railway bridge at the round abouts may be a bit of a problem), all along Upper Brook Street (much wider therefore it would be possible for segregated running, along into the city centre, and possibly joining a second city centre line that runs from GMex, around Portland Street and over to Piccadilly Gardens somehow.

It may sound tram obsessed, but I honestly cannot see , in this country, a city like Manchester getting the type of funding that would be required to build an underground - and I cannot see this changing as the public don't seem that concerened, so long as they can get their petrol.
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