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Greater Manchester Transport Projects Transport Matters For Greater Manchester and Surrounding Areas



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Old August 19th, 2005, 01:51 PM   #81
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P.S. I don't think there is a hope in hell off the above happening either, however, it has more chance than an underground since the costs would be significantly lower.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 02:58 PM   #82
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Metrolink

I totally agree with you.
I do think there is a big Kudos thing about an underground, and that people associate one with a big City, hence the passion for one.
I wish we had one, why didn't the Victorians build one? Must of been busy enough then? You're right, in a city the size of Manchester, too expensive now.

Last edited by pookey; August 19th, 2005 at 03:37 PM. Reason: cos I don't check what I write!
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Old August 19th, 2005, 03:17 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgnr8
But the Northern Line is dead outside zones 1 and 2 after morning and evening rush hour. Besides, the Wilmslow Road corridor is rarely dead. People in South Manc choose their bus ride on the bus company, not what bus comes first. Students generally get the Magic Bus or Ralph Bullock due to student fares. People wanting to be somewhere reliably quick get a stagecoach. People who aren't fucked get the Finglands. During the summer, Wilmslow Road's bus services are anything BUT dead. I've used the route since I first got a bus so regular experience comes into account.

And I believe people were getting annoyed with your holier than thou attitude as you displayed with your "why oh why" rant. Does the Tram King not like debate about other modes of rail transport?
Rallies to defence.....

Without wishing to sound patronising, It's good to see lots of optimism being expressed about trams/undergrounds etc. in Manchester, however I think M'link (Kurt) was simply trying to inject a dose of realism to some of the more far-fetched proposals being discussed.

The main thing to bear in mind when comparing London (& Liverpool, Newcastle and Glasgow) with non-underground cities like Manchester is that their systems (esp. London's) are legacy systems - they were originally constructed in a different (car-less) world to the one we live in today (I know Newc's system has recently been extended to Sunderland but this route is not mainly u/ground). It was possible to cost-justify building the London underground in the period 1890 - 1930 because there was no real alternative as people did not have private cars. Also bear in mind that the companies that built the lines went bust.

The trams were taken out before the war and shortly afterwards because more and more people could afford cars and wanted to use them, and as a consequence tram ridership decreased. The remaining passengers then had to pick up the fare increases further diminishing the attractiveness of public transport. It's only the saturation of car traffic and parking charges that have made public transport a realistic option again.

For instance I live in Zone 2 in London. My journey to work is about 3 miles. 10 trips a week, if I did it by car, would cost around £9 (30p/mile marginal cost). A travelcard is £21. Of course I get a travelcard because of congestion charging and lack/cost of parking, but this is my point - the sums stack up in London, but not as easily in Manchester where many people still drive into the centre to work or shop because it's often cheaper and/or more convenient.

Even in London a new underground line won't happen in my lifetime.......
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Old August 19th, 2005, 08:35 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgnr8
But the Northern Line is dead outside zones 1 and 2 after morning and evening rush hour.
True but the morning rush hour starts at 6 and finishes at 11 then the evening rush hour begins at 1 and goes on till the death.

A line under Oxford Road would be well used if it went out as far as Alderley Edge and carried on up to Bolton.

Never ever going to happen.
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Old August 19th, 2005, 11:12 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper
Even in London a new underground line won't happen in my lifetime.......
With the exception, of course, of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, DLR to Woolwich Arsenal...

Totalling in the region of a couple of billion pounds. Or about the same cost as completely rebuilding the entire city of Manchester three times over.

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Old August 19th, 2005, 11:46 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester Planner
With the exception, of course, of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, DLR to Woolwich Arsenal...

Totalling in the region of a couple of billion pounds. Or about the same cost as completely rebuilding the entire city of Manchester three times over.

A couple of billion to rebuild the city three times over? What are you on about? There is over 11 billion in active development in the city right now. It'd cost in the region of a couple of hundred billion to completely rebuild the place.
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Old August 20th, 2005, 01:02 PM   #87
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Chill, I didn't mean it litterally, but I just am amazed by how Londoners can oversee some huge billion-pound projects, while places like Manchester are dying for just one project of less than a billion pounds (such as the metrolink expansion).

Manchester doesn't need an underground, only a larger network of trams. It would be nice having one to the University, though with all the buses on Oxford Road perhaps it isn't that neccersary.
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Old August 20th, 2005, 01:17 PM   #88
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I heard that Glasgow is also getting an expansion to its underground?
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 04:51 PM   #89
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For you lot with google earth, 53degree, 29minutes, 59.48seconds north, 2degrees, 13minues and 38.03seconds west - you know it makes sense
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 05:04 PM   #90
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Taken yesterday!

Shudehill metro/bus/car park interchange!

Got ot be the best looking in the UK, espcially with a solar CIS in the background?!

Road was tarmaced yesterday!

Compare it to the beast at the MRI!







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Old August 22nd, 2005, 05:04 PM   #91
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or alternatively...

53degrees, 31minutes, 53.19seconds north, and 2degrees, 16minutes, 39.80seconds west - a double tram on it's way to Bury.

I think these pictures were taken on a Sunday, autumn day about 3 years ago.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 05:59 PM   #92
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Shudehill has turned out to be really good. Definately the best multi-storey car park I've ever seen.
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 06:06 PM   #93
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i was going to enter this into this weeks UPC, but it doesn't seem to have been updated.



i would love to see more views like this
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 08:28 PM   #94
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hmmmm.....

Environment of our city leading to cleaner air, less road traffic accidents etc or Financial restrictions....?

If a realistic underground network (even just a line or two) can be built by other modern, developing cities in Europe in the not so distant past (Glasgow and Amsterdam for example) why not Manchester?

Surely COST is not an excuse, it was not for the London Underround in the 1800's, not for the Dubai Metro in 1999 and NOT for us here in our fair city today where an an expansion to Metrolink - possibly underground to reach all areas of the city is needed in due time. We should never ever be so cowardly and give in to the politicians who would rather spend money on the undoubtibly DOOMED concept of building new roads and motorways over what could be clean, fast, reliable, safe and intergrated transport for everyone.

No more roads, phase out cars, less of the 'light', crammed, cheaply done stuff supposed to be a Metro system and long live the rails!
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Old August 22nd, 2005, 08:33 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kids in the riot
i was going to enter this into this weeks UPC, but it doesn't seem to have been updated.



i would love to see more views like this
Thats a good pic The station looks a lot better there than I remember it.
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Old August 23rd, 2005, 12:01 AM   #96
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With the underground thing, it's not like we need a network. A city loop would suffice, linking to existing and future metrolink stops would be superb. London has shitloads of different tram/tube type things so it must be viable in some respects. But anyway.

Shudehill is superb. I'm very very happy with it. Would've been nice if the glass covered the top floor but I also like how it's not. It gives the whole form of the thing a different view. Instead of a glass box, there's a nice bit of clean concrete and steel to give you idea of 2 structures - the carpark and a lovely glass veil, as if lowered over the building carefully from a crane.
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Old August 23rd, 2005, 03:32 PM   #97
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Bit off a nothing story in the MEN today...

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/me...rams_link.html

£2m spent on shelved trams link
Clarissa Satchell

TRAMS: Part of the plans were dropped.
TRAMS: Part of the plans were dropped.
MORE than £2million has been spent buying property and land to make way for a shelved Metrolink line.

The M.E.N. has discovered that Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive has spent £2.25 million buying nursing accommodation from Wythenshawe Hospital, as well as several plots of land along the proposed route.

They were intending to demolish the flats to make way for the new line, which would have formed a loop to the airport.

But that part of the line has now been chopped from the plan to cut costs, reducing the loop to a single route passing through Wythenshawe town centre.

GMPTE insists that they still want to build the line some time in the future, but that could not be considered until after the other three lines are finished - and that is expected to take at least 10 years.

The £2.25m makes up part of the government's £520m contribution to the expansion plan. So far, the PTE says it has spent about £200m on preparatory works and has been promised a further £58m to upgrade the existing system.

Devastated

Bosses, staff and patients at Wythenshawe Hospital were devastated by the decision to scrap the line to the hospital, which was also supposed to stop at a new business park called Davenport Green and at Newall Green.

A GMPTE spokesman said: "In total, advance works and property acquisition along the airport line have cost around £8.25m. Specifically, advance works and property acquisition along the now-deferred western section of the Wythenshawe loop total £2.25m.

"However, we must reiterate that plans for this section have not been discarded - in fact, members have asked the GMPTE to retain and protect powers for the Western loop for possible future development."

A spokeswoman for Wythenshawe Hospital said: "We can confirm that the land was bought by GMPTE with the intention of building the loop line, but further details of the deal have to remain confidential."

The PTE is continuing negotiations with the government about delivering the new lines to Ashton, Oldham and Rochdale, and Manchester Airport.

Was your home or business demolished or your land bought up to make way for a Metrolink line? If so contact the M.E.N. on 0161 211 2180, oe email us at the Newsdesk.
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Old August 23rd, 2005, 05:37 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCharlton
Suppose because it seems to make perfect sense. It's an incredibly busy artery and most users are already choosing public modes. Therefore a more efficient method of delivering the public mode (i.e. switching from buses to rail) makes sense.

Obviously we can't summon up the confidence in the UK to say to GMPTE:

1. Yes - here is the funding you need to do something that obviously makes sense.

2. No - you don't have to give in to the whinging bus companies along the route. Of course they would moan - wouldn't you! But that doesn't mean you have to change the plan.

3. Yes - people using the route will be happy to face disruption to their journeys, IF it is going to make more of a difference than all that crazy paving and tree plantation did in Rusholme.

For such a line, a simple cut and cover method could be quite effective. Even better make it fully automatic - slightly more upfront costs, but overall cheaper and looks more modern. Taking the above line though, extending it to Salford Central would probably make more sense. Also knocking off a few of the bottom stations might be more economical or the line would come to grade and fulfill the rest of the route.

<underground>
Salford Central Station | #
Opera House
St Peter's Square | M
Oxford Road Station | #
Aquatics Centre
University
Royal Infirmary
Whitworth Park
Rushome
Plattfields
<underground>
Fallow Field
Withington
Didsbury Village
East Didsbury#


Another cut+cover automated line could be:
Great Cheetham Street
Bury New Road
Victoria Station |M + #
Victoria Street
John Ryland Library
Opera House | M
G-Mex/Deansgate | M + #
Stretford Road
Withington Road
Whalley Range


Building of skyscrapers and other developments around these lines should be the focus to ensure that ridership is high.
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Old August 23rd, 2005, 05:46 PM   #99
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Rochdale & Oldham Extension Map





South Manchester & Manchester Airport Extension Map





East Manchester & Ashton-Under-Lyme Extension Map





East Didsbury & Stockport Extension Map





Trafford Park, Trafford Centre & The Lowry Extension Map
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Old August 23rd, 2005, 06:06 PM   #100
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Future Metrolink Map


Current Network
- 37km
- 37 stops

Future Network
- 105.3km
- 117 stops

Growth
2.8%
3.1%





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