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Old January 19th, 2012, 04:40 PM   #381
RobertWalpole
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No. They're not starting the towers until they get a large tenant which will not be easy since they need a lot more money per square foot than Related needs, and the Hudson Yards will be a much better location given the huge retail component with stores, restaurants, and cinemas and with all of its park space.
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Old January 19th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
I spoke with a contact at Brookfield who informed me that one of the towers is expected to be taller than the ESB.
Great news, thanks
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Old January 19th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
I spoke with a contact at Brookfield who informed me that one of the towers is expected to be taller than the ESB.
amen to that.

they needs to get u/c very soon.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 02:49 AM   #384
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amen to that.

they needs to get u/c very soon.
The platform will start soon, but the towers won't start for several years due to lower cost competition from the Yards, which even despite the massive price differential, is a much better project. Like 15 Penn and 2 and 3 WTC, this will be built, but it will take a few years.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 07:08 AM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
The platform will start soon, but the towers won't start for several years due to lower cost competition from the Yards, which even despite the massive price differential, is a much better project. Like 15 Penn and 2 and 3 WTC, this will be built, but it will take a few years.
Well, I wouldn't be so sure of that, Robert. Brookfield is in discussions with potential anchor tenants and if they find one, the North Tower will start soon. Let's wait and see. Considering the multi-million SF roll over in tenants just in Midtown over the next few years, there is plenty of potential for both the projects to start soon. I agree that 15 Penn may be a few years off due to the complexity of the project.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
No. They're not starting the towers until they get a large tenant which will not be easy since they need a lot more money per square foot than Related needs, and the Hudson Yards will be a much better location given the huge retail component with stores, restaurants, and cinemas and with all of its park space.
ugh, many years? That's no good. Hopefully "good things come to those who wait" will hold true here.
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Old January 20th, 2012, 02:04 PM   #387
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ugh, many years? That's no good. Hopefully "good things come to those who wait" will hold true here.
122 Leadenhall, the Walkie Talkie and Helter Skelter all strated after several years of delay.
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Old January 21st, 2012, 01:26 AM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
No. They're not starting the towers until they get a large tenant which will not be easy since they need a lot more money per square foot than Related needs, and the Hudson Yards will be a much better location given the huge retail component with stores, restaurants, and cinemas and with all of its park space.
Robert, I am not sure if this had been discussed before but what's the basis for the assertion that Manhattan West will be more costly than Hudson Yards on a per SF basis. From the information that I have, the average cost/SF is about $ 850, which is about the same as for Time Warner. Both main buildings are built on terra firma with the deck supporting only the public space in between the buildings. The Yards has a much bigger deck with a greater span,this may end up being costly.

On the other hand, I do agree that Related can cross-subsidize the office space because their project is much more mixed use in nature. They will also be more attractive as a stand-alone cluster because of the same reason and could thus be more attractive to office tenants in the early years till amenities develop in the surrounding area. That said, Manhattan West will also have a lot of amenities and Brookfield can add to this set if that becomes a major factor in leasing, as I am sure it will.

I am really looking forward to this project moving into construction, hopefully this year. Incidentally, a couple of my professors at MIT are looking at a nearby site as a development case study for our Real Estate Studio class. The Hudson Yards neighborhood has great potential indeed!
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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:39 AM   #389
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Anyway, while Brookfield will start the platform soon these towers likely won't start for years.
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Old February 8th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Ajaypp View Post
Robert, I am not sure if this had been discussed before but what's the basis for the assertion that Manhattan West will be more costly than Hudson Yards on a per SF basis. From the information that I have, the average cost/SF is about $ 850, which is about the same as for Time Warner. Both main buildings are built on terra firma with the deck supporting only the public space in between the buildings. The Yards has a much bigger deck with a greater span,this may end up being costly.
http://therealdeal.com/issues_articl...ds-grand-plan/

Brookfield’s grand plan
The Canadian firm is ramping up its Manhattan presence
February 01, 2012
By Adam Pincus

If Brookfield Office Properties’ newly aggressive stance in Manhattan isn’t keeping Related Companies’ Stephen Ross and Silverstein Properties’ Larry Silverstein awake at night, it probably should be.

Publicly traded Brookfield Office Properties, led by CEO Ric Clark, is looking to lease up as much as 10 million square feet of office space over the next few years in Manhattan — which may be the most space any private company has ever put on the market at one time. The onrush of inventory includes Brookfield’s proposed 5.4 million-square-foot Manhattan West project, as well as 3 million square feet in the World Financial Center, which Brookfield is upgrading. The need for tenants puts Brookfield in direct competition with the aforementioned moguls’ Manhattan mega-developments: Related’s Hudson Yards and Silverstein Properties’ World Trade Center towers....


Still, Brookfield will have to nab some of the largest tenants in the market to have a chance of successfully leasing up. Currently, there are an estimated 40 tenants looking for more than 200,000 square feet each, hunting for an aggregate of 14 million square feet. Some of the biggest include Time Warner, News Corp. and Credit Suisse — firms that brokers say are all looking for at least 1 million square feet of space.

To catch these big fish at Manhattan West, Brookfield is deviating from its usual strategy of handling leasing in-house, and has tapped a team led by Bruce Mosler, the chairman of global brokerage at Cushman & Wakefield, to help with the lease up. While construction hasn’t started at the site, a company in Italy is building a sophisticated piece of construction equipment that will be shipped here to build the $300 million platform over the site’s commuter train tracks, Larkin said. While construction on the platform will move forward once that mechanism is delivered, the company will not start constructing the actual towers until it signs an anchor tenant, he said.

Mosler declined to identify which ten ants his team was courting, but said, “We are meeting with the obvious players, with some growth tenants that are in the media sector, [and] some financial tenants that find efficiencies in this building and want to consolidate multiple sites.”

By contrast, Manhattan West will have the latest modern amenities, and it will compete against other brand-new towers, like the World Trade Center, Boston Properties’ 250 West 55th Street and even the SJP Properties speculative tower at 11 Times Square. Asking rents are now in the $70-to-$80-per-foot range, Larkin said.

Meanwhile, Brookfield and Related are vying to get into the ground first with their competing Far West Side projects.

“At the end of the day it comes down to the gross rent that both parties are going to be offering, and that is where the competition is going to be,” Larkin said.

Some give Related a better chance because it has a larger 40 percent tax break for tenants, and has already inked an office user: designer Coach. Because of that, Related has committed to providing them space in the 1.7 million-square-foot tower by late 2015, a Related source said. In addition, it is offering tenants the option of buying “at cost,” meaning the $700 per square foot that it is paying to build, or leasing for about $70 per square foot, in a building that will be near the new terminal for the 7 train. Yet, despite the proximity to the new station, some knocked Hudson Yards for being too far west.

While Manhattan West, on the other hand, has a lower, 25 percent tax break, it is one avenue from the city’s most active transit hub: Penn Station.
“From a timing perspective, I think [Brookfield] is going to be ahead of Related,” said Richard Bernstein, vice chairman at Cassidy Turley, pointing to the simpler process of building a foundation platform at Brookfield’s site. “There is a lack of supply in the market overall for good quality, large blocks of space.”
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Old February 10th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #391
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- Good article, Robert.

Nice to see that Brookfield is going ahead with building the erection gantry for the pre-cast platform. Related does have an anchor tenant in the bag but I am sure that Brookfield wouldn't be proceeding with the $ 300 Million platform unless something is in the works.

Quote:
While Manhattan West, on the other hand, has a lower, 25 percent tax break, it is one avenue from the city’s most active transit hub: Penn Station. “From a timing perspective, I think [Brookfield] is going to be ahead of Related,” said Richard Bernstein, vice chairman at Cassidy Turley, pointing to the simpler process of building a foundation platform at Brookfield’s site. “There is a lack of supply in the market overall for good quality, large blocks of space.”
We can talk about who will break ground first till the cows come home, or rather, the construction equipment arrives. Each project has its pros and cons. The short of it is that I would like nothing better than to see both these landmark projects start as soon as possible. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Btw, here's a nice little model of the area, the image is from the report that Robert had quoted. Too bad that the image size is pretty small but it gives a good idea of the Manhattan West towers' height in comparison to the ESB. Still looks like a taller building and a shorter one in this model, although it could be a dated one.


Last edited by Ajaypp; February 10th, 2012 at 02:49 AM.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 03:18 AM   #392
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They look much closer in height^

there's not a 280 foot difference there.

Judging from ESB and 1 Penn Plaza, the taller one is 1050ish feet and the smaller maybe 930ish like before. It's easy to tell, the larger one is no bigger than ESB's main shaft.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 01:48 PM   #393
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That is what is looks like in this small pic. I would always trust publications from the developer or others over this model.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #394
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The models are usually made by the developers or contracted by them, so the model should be correct
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Old February 10th, 2012, 05:03 PM   #395
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Yes


@Robert, I thought you said this building would be higher than Empire State at one point, oh well, maybe I was imagining things.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #396
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To me that render looks like portraying the taller tower to be like 340 meters and the shorter one like 300 meters, which both are wrong numbers according to SSP diagrams I hope Bob is right and the taller tower will indeed be taller than ESB
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Old February 10th, 2012, 06:01 PM   #397
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I have a contact at Brookfield. These are not even the final designs. Moreover, the actual towers are years away. Brookfield can't compete with Related, which has a massive cost advantage.
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Old February 10th, 2012, 11:51 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
I have a contact at Brookfield. These are not even the final designs. Moreover, the actual towers are years away. Brookfield can't compete with Related, which has a massive cost advantage.
So, what will it take to get the tallest tower built at Hudson Yards, what kind of tenant?
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Old February 10th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #399
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One of these I would say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertWalpole View Post
http://therealdeal.com/issues_articl...-office-space/

Big fish scour market looking for office space
Tightening market yields no large deals — so far
February 01, 2012
By Adam Pincus


..
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Old February 11th, 2012, 01:52 AM   #400
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Exactly.
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