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Old July 21st, 2008, 11:36 PM   #101
SonOfSparta
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Reaper-strain you forget to give credit to the Junta for inspiring the Greek Arts. You know films like Z, musicians and composers likes MikisTheodorakis, actors like Melina Mercouri, poets like Yianni Ritsos really became more popular with the dictatorship. I am glad to see you are one of those people who always sees the glass half full! I am sure for your next trick you tell us all how the Junta was good not only for the Arts but also for Democracy.

Last edited by SonOfSparta; July 22nd, 2008 at 12:34 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 12:38 AM   #102
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there is an obsession and preconception with "junta = bad" and "democracy = good" , of course noone wants a dictatorship, but it helps realize and compare the problems of what everyone imagines as a great democracy......for example the exageration of the "freedom of speech" ideal. sure, everyone must have it and is entitled to an opinion, but isnt it better to be knowledgeable than just free to talk rubbish? for example, like many so called "opnionists" on TV....and so on.

Its not about arguing for one's rights all the time...but seeing if and how these rights affect society and our personal and social progress.
for example, sometimes it isnt bad to leave decisions to experts than to have to ask every single person on the planet regardless if they have ANY idea of the topic.....even me, I wouldnt be offended if I was excluded from some particular polls or votes.
you really want my opinion on whether so and so building should be built? yet I could easily stop it without any idea of architecture.....and so forth.

Its a thin line...

finally, do you consider sparta to have been a democracy as the ones you idolize? no. yet so many idolize sparta's social system.....its ok for our ancestors but not for us?
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 01:09 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEAFS FANATIC View Post
I swear, if I see neorion write, "back to topic" one more time I am going to throw my frigging computer right off my balcony onto the busy Toronto street below!!!
I noticed the irony too. I wonder who he's referring to when he says "those intending to derail the discussion".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy8181 View Post
there is an obsession and preconception with "junta = bad" and "democracy = good" , of course noone wants a dictatorship, but it helps realize and compare the problems of what everyone imagines as a great democracy......for example the exageration of the "freedom of speech" ideal. sure, everyone must have it and is entitled to an opinion, but isnt it better to be knowledgeable than just free to talk rubbish? for example, like many so called "opnionists" on TV....and so on.
It's important for everyone to say whatever malakies they want, without being persecuted for it.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 01:36 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfSparta View Post
Reaper-strain you forget to give credit to the Junta for inspiring the Greek Arts. You know films like Z, musicians and composers likes MikisTheodorakis, actors like Melina Mercouri, poets like Yianni Ritsos really became more popular with the dictatorship. I am glad to see you are one of those people who always sees the glass half full! I am sure for your next trick you tell us all how the Junta was good not only for the Arts but also for Democracy.
Exactly...how pathetic

LEAFS, say something worthwhile, otherwise shut-up.

Back to topic
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 01:57 AM   #105
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I look at the maket wich they talk about I sensed as if it was a boxy building. I am afraid of meeting anything like that





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Old July 22nd, 2008, 03:12 AM   #106
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Billy8181, I'll try to keep this short as it is way off topic, you state there is an obsession and preconception with "junta = bad" and "democracy = good" and that isn’t it better to be knowledgeable than just free to talk rubbish? I am sure you'll be glad to know one of Athens greatest philosophers Plato would agree with you, in fact he did idolize Sparta’s social system. Yet we all know Athens golden age happened when it was a democracy, Plato was able to criticize the state because he was free to do so. Fast forward thousands of years, Greece regains its democracy in a series of struggles. In the 1960's yet again another dictatorship, but as you point out, its not so bad they had a 'small economic miracle.' What a wonderful observation, forget about the government denying its own citizens political and individual freedom. I make a few jokes about an Opera House and people in this forum come down on me, but you, YOU along with Reaper-strain, justify a dictatorship and say it wasn't all that bad! I pity the both of you, and I am ashamed for you, for all you claim to know about culture, for wanting Athens to have a grand Opera House like other great cities, yet your not capable to grasp that the Junta's rule was a dark time in Athens history, it brought shame and pain to this city, the first city that gave birth to democracy.

PS: For your information I don't idolize the ancient Spartan government, I take the name because my family has been living there for many generations.

Last edited by SonOfSparta; July 22nd, 2008 at 03:19 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 04:53 AM   #107
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I don't see a contradiction between venerating ancient Sparta and cherishing modern democracy; and I don't consider paying homage to ancient Sparta as equal to idolizing aspects of ancient Spartan society we would today consider unethical. I don't think SonOfPSarta ever idolized ancient Spartan society in such a manner.

Additionally, while it's true that democracy also gives people the freedom to spread alarmism, sensationalism (like ANT1), and use their freedom of speech in an irresponsible manner (like the whole fiasco on olive leaves supposedly curing cancer), it also gives level-headed people the freedom to challenge and respond to those who are saying irresponsible things. In a dictatorship, on the other hand, the ones in power can lie all they want, and no one is allowed to challenge them. I'll take democracy any day.

As for the junta's "economic genius"...we could just as easily say that the economic boom of the junta era was the result of economic policies set in place before the junta took over, and/or luck from external factors (the global economy was doing well in the late 1960s, which affected Greece positively)..there's a variety of factors. The "junta-era economic boom" (which had started long before the junta) didn't last long after democracy was restored, and before we go blaming the left (PASOK), let's remember that from 1974, ND was in power until the early 1980s. The junta leaders were military men; not economists with PhDs and years of public policy experience. Let's be real about this. I don't care if you're left or right...without the credentials in public administration, your ideology means nothing. And that is something that the world has started to realize post-20th century. As the left-vs-right ideology debate becomes more obsolete, the world realizes that there's different solutions to different problems and different systems that work for different societies. In the 21st century, both sides are starting to moderate their ideologies, become realistic and pragmatic, and move towards the center.

As I've said before, democracy in Greece produced Egnatia Odos and Attiki Odos...the junta produced a one-lane road that passes outside Tripoli rather than go through the city. For those who accuse people of "dwelling" on how bad the junta era was, on the flip side of the coin, there are some people who go on and on about how much "better" the junta era was and the things that the junta [supposedly] accomplished. I'm not one of those people who dwells on the past and protests outside the Poltechneio every 17/11 (those little kids need to grow up and use their energy in more constructive ways...like volunteer for WWF or Greenpeace), but I always speak up against the illusion that the junta era produced positive results for the country.

Last edited by skyduster; July 22nd, 2008 at 05:19 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 08:40 AM   #108
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I believe that this discussion should be posted in all newspapers and magazines in our country. For it reveals many of the controversial issues that were left untouched by the democratic governments from the years 1974 to present and now still haunt us.

It is a rather alarming fact that in Greece, no total vision is projected this very moment (a few projects and shopping centers here and there do not count as a national vision) about the future but we introspectively and retrospectively revolve around issues 40 years old.

Well, I agree that the abolishment of constitutional rights by a military Junta or for any other reason should be avoided at all costs. However, it is strange that many people scattered here and there, speak about "the economic miracle" or with some -one might daresay- "nostalgic touch" about whatever good things (along with the many bad) the military junta might have brought to this country.

Of course, the easy road to go down to counter these opinions would be to call them supporters of the Junta or "anti-democrats" (as if the rest of us are model citizens ).

Could this observation however be an indication that at the very bottom, without abolishing democracy, some adjustments may be in need to be implemented so that our democracy will continue to function properly and in alignment with the current political, social and economic conditions? Or that some things might have simply gotten out of hand over the last 30+ years? (μην τρελαίνεστε, συμβαίνει και στις καλύτερες οικογένειες ).

Nothing remains unchanged and there may be a chance in my humble opinion that with 30+ years old social structures and beliefs we may not be up to today's or tomorrow's challenges (παιδί να είχαμε κάνει, πλέον θα ήταν σε ηλικία γάμου!!! ). Regardless if this statement rattles the chains in the ears of some, marginal populist, yet wealthy opposition leaders, or even the mainstream ones struggling for our votes without doing NOTHING to earn them.

These are alarming signs that need to be addressed and not to be hidden under the carpet...
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 10:14 AM   #109
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amen GM.....I'm still trying to get through the fact that I don't support any junta just because I dare mention the word in a post.....

all topics keep going in circles and end up always talking about "individual freedoms and rights"......and how antiquity was based on them, as if I'm saying its better to be locked up in a cell. haha

this issue, along with the human rights issues, is so touchy that it makes discussions impossible, as if any statement here will turn the contry into north korea in a second....
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 01:34 PM   #110
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Some more of Piano's work...

Auditorium Padre Pio


and the interior


Auditorium, Rome


and the interior


Biosfera


Renzo Piano Paul Klee museum


High museum, Atlanta
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 01:59 PM   #111
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I think Ludwing Museum in Collogne is another Piano work, if I don't know wrong.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 02:30 PM   #112
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I do not know, never heard of that...
What i noticed though is that most of Piano's work is acclimatized to the general urban architecture, as opposed to Calatrava for example who has a distinct style. That could mean we might get a cube again. (?) i hope not.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 03:36 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuvvaci View Post
I look at the maket wich they talk about I sensed as if it was a boxy building. I am afraid of meeting anything like that





Posted by Lucretius in stadia.gr

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με αγωνία απελευθέρωσης και με διαθέσεις μιας ιπτάμενης φυγής προς τ'άστρα; M.X.
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Old July 22nd, 2008, 03:50 PM   #114
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Hm i hadn't noticed that part on the picture, so it seems like Kuvacci is right after all, and to be honest i wouldn't like a copy of his previous work for Athens, and certainly not this one
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:08 AM   #115
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hopefully not.....I'm no expert but the previous pics are not particularly encouraging...

the Paul klee museum is quite nice, the rest is dull (at least aesthetically...).

I can understand why the acropolic museum ,for example, is not so appealing aesthetically(but very modern and practical) due to the external constraints the architect faced, but after calatrava's olympic complex I would like to see a major building with a "touch" in Athens.

Fingers crossed.
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 12:15 AM   #116
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People, with all this talk about this stupid Junta we got off track...
I live in Chicago and posted yesterday a link to Piano's work here (under construction).
It is nice, but it is boxy... He is into boxy these days... see the building he just put up in NY. I agree with many in here that athens doesnt need another box BUT... do the math... the box is good for:
- Picking up the solar energy from the roof
- Letting light in
- Making a green roof

What will be unique about this box is that it will stand on very tall legs. This way it will oversee the Posidonos road. It will be very tall so that it can have a panoramic view of the city, the Parthenon and the mountains. It will not be a skyscraper but a box on very tall "legs". Something like The Cloun in Dubai.
It is a great design and it makes sense. I predict it will look like a "flying" cube.
What could be cool is the lack of a first floor. The ground level should simply be colums submerged in water.

You will be able to see from all around the city... and it will look as if one of the boxy polikatikies took off into space.

I will try to make a drawing later today.

What do you think?
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 07:42 AM   #117
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Err, are we talking about something that looks like the model of the structure in the lower right corner of this photo?



Not that encouraging, even if it may be -at long last- above 27m or 30m in height!!!

But like I said, we wait...
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 08:46 AM   #118
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Oh well, if we don't like it, we can join all the other vocal opponents that will come out when the plans are published and accuse the building of compromising views towards Faliron Bay etc.

PS. I don't think the PM knows what Piano is explaining ...he has a baffled look about him.
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 11:12 AM   #119
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I don't think what we see is an actual building model. This seems to me to be a cover for a covered outdoor area - there's no building on the "legs". Just a roof. Sure, it's inspired from the Chicago building, but it's not the same thing.

The white model shows an overview of the area, and no buildings are discernible in it.

So I don't think we have any clues about the actual buildings yet. I, too, would prefer them not to be boxy. But, no matter what their shape, they are going to be interesting structures, the architect's name guaranteed that, I think
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Old July 23rd, 2008, 11:53 AM   #120
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elpizw mono me "kosmima" na min enoi "kosmima leitourgikotitas...", ekei tha pesei gelio...
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