General Developments in Athens

[Giorgio]

I like the plan for the kentro, they really need to do something about the lack of locals though.

Tell me, do you feel safe anymore walking around Omonia and its surrounds? Its a melting pot of illegal immigrants.

I don't mind multiculturalism in Athens, but this was just shocking! When I say multiculturalism, I mean responsible hard-working immigrants. I seriously can't say for sure whether I even saw one Greek in this area. It is littered with praktoria offering direct bus lines from Athens - Tirane; Bulgarian coffee shops with gazing patrons who are quite the perverts (no generalisations) and disabled beggers with signs around their neck written in Cyrillic and English, not even Greek. Of course I would also walk past the occasional old arab lady on her hands and knees begging the tourists...what a great place to show these people, especially considering this area is something like 80% hotels.

Athens, although much improved in recent years, has really become the joke of Greece and has pretty much been left for the dogs (and not the ones that try and lunge at your souvlaki in Plaka).

Central Athens reminded me of that idea of a run down urban environment, ridden with unwanted and socially unfit immigrants and drug addicts, complete with run down buildings.

[GrigorisSokratis]

Originally Posted by Giorgio

I like the plan for the kentro, they really need to do something about the lack of locals though.

Tell me, do you feel safe anymore walking around Omonia and its surrounds? Its a melting pot of illegal immigrants.

I don't mind multiculturalism in Athens, but this was just shocking! When I say multiculturalism, I mean responsible hard-working immigrants. I seriously can't say for sure whether I even saw one Greek in this area. It is littered with praktoria offering direct bus lines from Athens - Tirane; Bulgarian coffee shops with gazing patrons who are quite the perverts (no generalisations) and disabled beggers with signs around their neck written in Cyrillic and English, not even Greek. Of course I would also walk past the occasional old arab lady on her hands and knees begging the tourists...what a great place to show these people, especially considering this area is something like 80% hotels.

Athens, although much improved in recent years, has really become the joke of Greece and has pretty much been left for the dogs (and not the ones that try and lunge at your souvlaki in Plaka).

Central Athens reminded me of that idea of a run down urban environment, ridden with unwanted and socially unfit immigrants and drug addicts, complete with run down buildings.

Exactly my friend, and to that you should add the mystery of those groups of illegal immigrants from Pakistan that sit all they long just watching carefully the passers-by (and I say carefully as if they are searching something interesting to take from you, believe me); and if they stand up they do it in large groups while one of them is holding a cell phone; if you take a look you will realize that the above is a situation that repeats over and over in Omonoia, Akadimia, Piraeus main harbor and Zea. A few days ago I had a situation in Piraeus when one of them, as I was passing by the area of the Aegina's dolphins he stared at me as if he wanted to attack me, for minutes! (then checked back after a minute and again after a second minute and he didn't stop looking at me with that threatening look) so I decided to leave the place, unfotunately it's a place I love but, next time I'll be there I'll have to be more careful, furthermore I wonder what would have happened if this happened to me at 22:00 instead of 18:00.

Back to the Omonoia issue, there's also the old building of Minion (which a few days ago someone related with the works supposedly taking place there told me that they stopped working a few months ago, accordingly the expected early '09 opening has been postponed of course) which completes the area's rundown look. *****sigh****** When it was just a decade or so ago that I used to go there to the 8th floor to play Nintendo and Sega for free with my friends.....the good ol' days

Seriously the whole area needs a cleanup. Omonoia should get rid of those illegal immigrants who don't do anything and Plateia Kotzia from the junkies.

Finally as for what they are going to do in Parnitha.....SHAME ON YOU BOULEYTES AND YPOURGOI!!!!!

[AAL]

"Central Athens reminded me of that idea of a run down urban environment, ridden with unwanted and socially unfit immigrants and drug addicts, complete with run down buildings"

Central Athens is not just Omonoia. Central Athens is also Syntagma, Kolwnaki, Dionysiou Areopagitou, Thission, Plaka, Stadium area....beautiful, clean, well-kept, and very upmarket areas. I do believe that a radical solution should be found for the Omonoia area. But let's not generalize!!!

[skyduster]

Originally Posted by Giorgio

I like the plan for the kentro, they really need to do something about the lack of locals though.

Tell me, do you feel safe anymore walking around Omonia and its surrounds? Its a melting pot of illegal immigrants.

I don't mind multiculturalism in Athens, but this was just shocking! When I say multiculturalism, I mean responsible hard-working immigrants. I seriously can't say for sure whether I even saw one Greek in this area. It is littered with praktoria offering direct bus lines from Athens - Tirane; Bulgarian coffee shops with gazing patrons who are quite the perverts (no generalisations) and disabled beggers with signs around their neck written in Cyrillic and English, not even Greek. Of course I would also walk past the occasional old arab lady on her hands and knees begging the tourists...what a great place to show these people, especially considering this area is something like 80% hotels.

You're generalizing Central Athens. The run-down decrepit areas that you described characterize the areas immediately south and west of Omonia, parts of Monastiraki, and west to Plateia Karaïskaki and the areas around there. This is the next part of central Athens slated for major gentrification, while Plaka, Thissio, Panepistimio areas have already been gentrified, and Gazi and Psirri have started to gentrify within the past few years. As you said, unfortunately many hotels, including many good hotels, are located in the run-down Omonia-Karaïskaki corridor (hence many tourists are forced to linger here, giving them a horridly inaccurate impression of Greece), probably because it was [wrongly] regarded -back in the 1970s- the perfect district to forge a "modern" CBD for Athens. Hence, multi-level buildings, many of them of ugly 1970s "modernist" architecture, were built in this area, which in turn -like any proper Robert Moses-inspired city center- went into decay during middle class flight from the city to the subrubs in the 1980s and 1990s, and re-populated with all the illegal immigants and refugees that inhabit there today. Such urban vacuums also attract the crime that these areas are now associated with.

[Giorgio]

Just a note, I didn't intentionally generalise central Athens. I should have made it more clear that I was referring to that particular area.

Syntagma area of the centre is just mind-blowing, beautiful, well kept and grand. Plaka is very charming, peaceful and enlightening. Kolonaki - most definitely one of my favourite chic areas in urban Europe, really special. Omonia on the other hand...I am scared it may be too far gone. How are they going to drive the illegal immigrants out? It is VERY important to do so fast, this is the part of the city most tourists become acquainted with as this is where most hotels are located. Just look at the reviews for Athens hotels in this area: Great hotel, terrible area.

I am very glad to hear about the attempt at redeveloping this area.

BTW, I like whats happened with the 2, fashion house hotel. I think this is the kind of developments that need to happen around Omonia to get it back on track. Otherwise its just not going to get anywhere.

[Bluedome]

If the government knew what it was good for the city it would clean up the streets from all those lingering illegals. They always seem to hang out in large bunches and remind me of the attacking mob of children of Brazil that try to ambush you and steal from you. Sometimes I wonder why they even came to Greece if they are not even going to get a freakin job. A major crackdown like the Italians did with the gypsies/Romanians is needed.

[ovem]

well i'm really pissed off when i pass through the area in menandrou st. or sofokleus st. or around pireos st. in omonia sq... it's not my idea. the place is really dangerous. this area was not that bad 3 years before..

[gm2263]

Unfortunately, the solutions for this are not simple, nor short term and to this end, there must be a common understanding that there is a difference between "multiculturalism" and the chaotic and unconditional accommodation of any refugee from all corners of the planet.

I am afraid that when this particular issue will be seriously thrown on the table, we will have the usual cheap political shots from the "snipers" of the Greek political matters who always condemn but never propose or otherwise get their feet wet in the mud for which they are highly responsible for.

And yes, a "sweep operation" from the Greek police's special forces can be done but will not solve anything except for a few days relief. More strategic and long-term action is needed.

[ovem]

gm i agree. anyway i dont believe that many immigrants are criminals just because they are immigrants. i believe that they dont have any solution... they are poor and they came to ngreece for a better luck, but greek people (and the government) face them like criminals.

[skyduster]

Originally Posted by Bluedome

Sometimes I wonder why they even came to Greece if they are not even going to get a freakin job.

You're making assumptions.

You see a bunch of foreingers in a run-down neighborhood, lingering around, wearing clothing that makes them stand out, either because they're wearing long Pakistani garb with a long beard, or maybe they're wearing old, dirty, ripped clothes..and you assume that they came to Greece and decided not to find a job. What made you come to this conclusion? They came precisely to find work, and earn enough money to return to their homelands one day, start a family, and also be able to support their old parents back home. But either their attempts to find work were unsuccessful, or they have found very low-paying work -lower than the legal minimum wage- in the undocumented economy...the fact that they're not working when you happened to run into them doesn't mean that they have not found work. You're filling in the blanks in order to try and explain to yourself what you don't know, and I think your speculation partly rests on culture shock.

The reason that -say- large groups of Pakistani men may come across as very weird or offending to native Greeks is because of a cultural difference. Because it's not normal in Greece for young men to loiter in large groups in the street, doing absolutely nothing during their free time, without the presence of any women...when Pakistanis do this, naturally, it looks very bizarre, and even a bit threatening to Greeks. We're not used to this, so we don't know what to make of it when we see Pakistani immigrants loitering in the street. Are they lazy? Are they refusing to work? No. They're just from a different culture.

They don't go to the cafe for a frappé, they don't know what that is; it's foreign to them. They're not obsessed with the beach like we Greeks are. They don't know how to play basketball, they probably can't play football either, and they have probably never lifted a weight...these sport and physical activities may be completely alien to most of them. They're probably not Olympiakos or Panathinaikos supporters. They don't mingle with the opposite sex because of the conservative teachings of their culture; they may expect their parents back home in Pakistan to find a bride for them. They don't go to concerts...or at least they don't listen to Greek pop music, and they probably don't like American/British rock either. They don't go to university. They don't eat out; it's expensive. They're probably not interested in the city's musuems and galleries because they're uneducated. They don't go on holiday to Mykonos with their friends, or skiing at Parnassos, or hiking in the Pindos mountains, or a road trip to Kerkyra. They probably don't know video games, and they're probably not interested in urban planning discussions on the internet (let alone if they can afford a computer, or even 30 minutes at an internet cafe). They don't have parents or family members in the country that they can visit. Most are not interested in Christian holidays and festivities like Christmas, Easter, Assumption, or Apokries. They don't go partying in Psirri, Gazi, or Glyfada; they may have never had beer or wine in their lives, because their culture considers it morally wrong. There's really nothing for them to do in Athens. They're from a very different culture.

Add the fact that most of the guys you see are recent arrivals, have not integrated into Greek society yet, have not learned the language yet, and are probably scared shitless and highly dependent on their fellow countrymen. Just put yourself in their shoes. It's not Pakistan's urban educated middle class that migrate to Greece...it's the uneducated rural hyperconservative masses for whom Athens has almost nothing to offer.

Of course, the reverse is also valid. It just looks very bad to have large groups of poorly-dressed people who don't seak the local language lingering around...it makes parts of Athens look third world.

[Bluedome]

Skyduster, if you apply the reasoning you used for my post to your own, you are guilty of the same assumptions, only in your case you are choosing to excuse their behavior with the rosiest explanation possible.

[skyduster]

No, I'm not sugarcoating nor excusing anything. I'm just trying to point out that there are a million possible reasons that would explain what you've observed. You simply saw something, and made the worst possible assumption. Cultural differences have the power to create misconceptions between peoples...take it from someone who grew up in 3 countries. Of course, with immigration, Greece has also absorbed many foreigners who are coming into the country with criminal intent (robberies, mafia, drug trade, people trafficking, etc). But there are also lots of reasonable explanations for the things that you see immigrants doing. Let's be real: an immigrant from a rural conservative area of Pakistan probably doesn't do most of the things native young Athenians like to do...at least not until he becomes integrated into Greek society, if he ever does. Some immigrant groups are integrating quite well, even assimilating, while others don't because their culture is too different from Greek culture. Someone from Ukraine, for example, will have a far easier time integrating into Greek society, than someone from Pakistan. The cultural differences between Greece and Ukraine are far fewer than the differences between Greece and Pakistan.

[Giorgio]

They don't go to the cafe for a frappé, they don't know what that is; it's foreign to them. They're not obsessed with the beach like we Greeks are. They don't know how to play basketball, they probably can't play football either, and they have probably never lifted a weight...these sport and physical activities may be completely alien to most of them. They're probably not Olympiakos or Panathinaikos supporters. They don't mingle with the opposite sex because of the conservative teachings of their culture; they may expect their parents back home in Pakistan to find a bride for them. They don't go to concerts...or at least they don't listen to Greek pop music, and they probably don't like American/British rock either. They don't go to university. They don't eat out; it's expensive. They're probably not interested in the city's musuems and galleries because they're uneducated. They don't go on holiday to Mykonos with their friends, or skiing at Parnassos, or hiking in the Pindos mountains, or a road trip to Kerkyra. They probably don't know video games, and they're probably not interested in urban planning discussions on the internet (let alone if they can afford a computer, or even 30 minutes at an internet cafe). They don't have parents or family members in the country that they can visit. Most are not interested in Christian holidays and festivities like Christmas, Easter, Assumption, or Apokries. They don't go partying in Psirri, Gazi, or Glyfada; they may have never had beer or wine in their lives, because their culture considers it morally wrong. There's really nothing for them to do in Athens. They're from a very different culture.

So in other words, they are unable or unwilling to integrate into Greek society? In that case, I say good riddance.

Coming from Australia, a very multicultural society, Greeks integrated very well here and have become crucial to Australia's cultural identity, same with Italians and others.

On the other hand we have your description of immigrants in Greece, not integrating in society and instead become outcasted in society and being rather unproductive (since as you say the could be working within the black market).
They should be driven out, there is really no place for unproductive, unwilling illegal immigrants in Greece refusing to integrate into society.

[gm2263]

The problem is not whether they can but whether they want to integrate into society. BTW, in Greece we have the Rom citizens which are more or less on the same tangent. They don't want to integrate into the Greek society. However they need to be explained how at least they may become functional in our society. We cannot change ourselves and obviously, we cannot change them. On the other hand though, they need to understand that in any case there has to be a middle ground. And obviously, this is the work of the social scientists.

[SouthernEuropean]

People just a reminder these discussions are not really appropriate especially on this section of our forum,in the meantime ...

Νοέμβριο εγκαινιάζεται το εμπορικό κέντρο Golden Hall στο Μαρούσι



Εγκαίνια στο διάστημα 20-25 Νοεμβρίου προετοιμάζεται να κάνει το νέο εμπορικό κέντρο της Lamda Development στο Μαρούσι, με την επωνυμία Golden Hall.
Εχοντας ήδη από τις αρχές του 2008 καλυφθεί κατά 100% ο συνολικός διαθέσιμος εμπορικός χώρος, οι τελικές εργασίες στο νέο εμπορικό κέντρο ολοκληρώνονται εντός χρονοδιαγράμματος, επιτρέποντας το άνοιγμά του πριν από τη χειμερινή περίοδο αιχμής των χριστουγεννιάτικων αγορών.
Σημειώνεται ότι το Golden Hall θα καταλαμβάνει [b]40.000 τ.μ. ωφέλιμου εμπορικού χώρου και θα περιλαμβάνει 150 καταστήματα, τα οποία θα αναπτύσσονται σε 3 επίπεδα, ενώ θα διαθέτει και 1.400 θέσεις[b/] στάθμευσης αυτοκινήτων. Τη διαχείριση του νέου εμπορικού κέντρου έχει αναλάβει η ECE-Lamda Hellas, θυγατρική εταιρία της Lamda Development.
Η συνολική επένδυση της Lamda Develpoment υπολογίζεται στα 65 εκατ. ευρώ, ενώ το μισθωτήριο συμβόλαιο με την Ολυμπιακά Ακίνητα Α.Ε., η οποία μισθώνει το κτίριο του IBC, προβλέπει τίμημα 7,25 εκατ. ευρώ ετησίως και η διάρκεια του είναι για 40+6 έτη.
Το Golden Hall εκτιμάται ότι απευθύνεται σε 2,5 εκατομμύρια καταναλωτές και θα έχει διαφοροποιημένο χαρακτήρα από το γειτονικό του The Mall, ιδιοκτησίας της Lamda Development και της HSBC.
Στο νέο εμπορικό κέντρο περιλαμβάνονται τρείς ισχυρές λιανεμπορικές παρουσίες, όπως ο όμιλος Inditex (Zara) με καταστήματα και για τις εννέα αλυσίδες ένδυσης που διαχειρίζεται, ένα νέο κατάστημα Notos Galleries Home εμβαδού περίπου 3.500 τ.μ. αλλά και ένα νέο πολυκατάστημα το οποίο διαχειρίζεται η North Landmark.Σύμφωνα με τις προβλέψεις, το πολυκατάστημα στην πρώτη τριετία λειτουργίας του θα παρουσιάσει 70 εκατ. ευρώ τζίρο, ενώ ο στόχος είναι τα 100 εκατ. ευρώ στην πενταετία.

[Billy8181]

very nice, I hope they know what they're doing cause we seem to be getting a huge amount of shop+cinemas very close to each other there.....i dont know how or from who they get their revenues (assuming all greeks live beyond the poverty line as is constantly heard on the news), but somehow they keep going...

the old village centre unfortunately was a victim of this sprawl though...i wonder what they will do with it(?)

[gm2263]

I don't think this one will include a multiplex cinema, only shops. Besides, the positioning of the center according to the Lambda Development executives is oriented towards the upper middle class (or whatever is left of it) and above. To this end, I expect it to be more luxurious than the mall Athens, as well as more expensive.

Also, I am not aware of the latest developments from the Eastern Attica malls built by McArthur Glenn and Reds Development if I am correct. Also, I know little about what happens with the other mall presumably under construction, at the site of the Gymnastc Sports Center in Galatsi, next to Kymis Avenue. This is another 40,000sq meters in the equation.

All this is good, but with this and that, as they say, it means that within a radius of 3 km we have four top-notch shopping centers (The Mall Athens, Golden Hall and Galatsi, not to mention many smaller ones including for iνstance the "Aithrio" from the late 1980s within a radius of 4 km.

The competition is big, and the new malls will be impressive but I am skeptical about their financial viability once they will all be in business.

[skyduster]

I think you guys are misinterpreting me and trying to find points of disagreement. I don't disagree with you.

My only point is that when bluedome sees large grous Pakistanis loitering in the street, it comes off as bizarre and threatening because of cultural difference. It's called culture shock. You cant expect someone from rural Pakistan who just arrived yesterday to start going to kafeteries for frappé, having a beer in Psirri, going to Glyfada with his Greek girlfriend, or going on a ski trip to Parnassos with his buddies. An immigrant from Moscow, yes. But not an immigrant from Waziristan (backwards, tribal province of Pakistan). It'll take much longer to integrate.

I'm not making excuses for anything or anyone, nor am I trying to find fault with anything or anyone.

Originally Posted by Giorgio

So in other words, they are unable or unwilling to integrate into Greek society? In that case, I say good riddance.

Coming from Australia, a very multicultural society, Greeks integrated very well here and have become crucial to Australia's cultural identity, same with Italians and others.

On the other hand we have your description of immigrants in Greece, not integrating in society and instead become outcasted in society and being rather unproductive (since as you say the could be working within the black market).
They should be driven out, there is really no place for unproductive, unwilling illegal immigrants in Greece refusing to integrate into society.

No. Read what I write in its entirety:

Originally Posted by skyduster

...an immigrant from a rural conservative area of Pakistan probably doesn't do most of the things native young Athenians like to do...at least not until he becomes integrated into Greek society, if he ever does. Some immigrant groups are integrating quite well, even assimilating, while others don't because their culture is too different from Greek culture. Someone from Ukraine, for example, will have a far easier time integrating into Greek society, than someone from Pakistan. The cultural differences between Greece and Ukraine are far fewer than the differences between Greece and Pakistan.

The cultural difference between Greece and Australia is far smaller than the cultural difference between Greece and Pakistan.

Moreover, you're comparing Australia's Greek population -which has been present in Australia since the 1950s/1960s- to Greece's Pakistani population which hasn't been in Greece long enough to integrate.

You can't make a fair comparison between Greeks in Melbourne and Pakistanis in Athens, because Greeks experienced less of a culture shock when they emigrated to Australia, than Pakistanis do as they immigrate to Greece. And because the Greek community in Australia is older than Pakistani community in Greece.

What I have witnessed is that Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, even Albanians and Ethiopian Christians are integrating into Greek society...so you can't paint all immgirant nationalities with the same brush. Pakistanis are not integrating, however; at least not yet. The cultural difference is just too great. The may eventually integrate, but someone from rural Pakistan has much more of a culture shock to overcome in Athens than someone from, say, Kiev, Rostov, or Sofia.

Eventually what I see happening, is one of two possibilities, after the Pakistanis stay, and become more established in Greece.

The first possibility is similar to Pakistanis in Britain or Arab Muslims in the United States: they will integrate but will not assimilate. They will retain a separate cultural and ethnic identity, but will find a way to integrate into Greek society, by establishing social networks and collective associations for legal, business, and cultural purposes, and getting more involved in the economy and politics.

The other possibility is more along the lines of Kurds in Germany or North Africans in France: they will neither assimilate nor integrate, and will continute to live in economic ethnic ghettos (and this is a loaded subject, as blame has be appropriated both on the native population for discrimination and on the immigant communities themselves for refusing to integrate...but I am not interested in that debate right now).

As for full assimilation (which is different from integration), I only see this happening with European immigrants (Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Russians, Georgians, etc), and indeed, European immigrants have been assimilating into Greek society and intermarrying with the native population for several years now.

[TeddyAmsterdam]

@gm, true, there will be no cinemas etc in Golden Hall. They aim for a 30+ target group, where The Mall is still very teenager oriented.

There is still space for few malls in the wider area, to balance the bit "unhealthy" success of The Mall. Of course we will get some day to the stage of mall-competition like many other cities in the world, where some old or smaller malls will not be so popular of course. This is often where strong architecture comes luckily.
An example of uncontroled mall-booming was in East Europe capitals (like Warsaw, Budatesp etc but also Istanbul or even Dubai) where the malls had to redefine themselves and choose a target group. You simply cannot make anyone happy.
And what happened there, the first malls were smaller and of nothing special architecturally (like Aithrio, or even The Mall which is so ugly building) and the new ones started investing in really amazing buildings, themes and experiences to offer.

a recap of the under development Shopping Centers in wider Athens (the proper ones) :

- Galden Hall - Kiffisias
- Galatsi (ex Gymnastics Hall)
- Kiffisos Mall (attached to the new IKEA, but project frozen at the moment cause they found antiquities ..of course)
- V Mall (temp name for the mega mall of Vovos in Votanikos)
- another one next to it, dont know the details that well
- Pireos 180 (junction of Pireos & Hamosternas)
- Yialou (the development of REDS in Messogeia)
- McArhour Glenn Outlet Village (right next to Yialou)
- Elefsina Center (also from REDS)
- Shopping passage/center in Victoria Square connecting mostly existing buildings. (looking forward for this one, i wish we had more of those in the real center, to transform all these ungly passages (Stoes) near Syntagma etc)

anything else i forget?

[Giorgio]

But even in Australia we never witness such displacement in the community or non-integration (except with the natives).

There are many Pakistanis and Indians here but they never seem as lost as the ones in Greece. Perhaps its the fact that many of them are probably illegal?