DfT start Pendolino lengthening process

[Caiman]

What about at peak times? I got on a train around 5:30PM on a friday night from Euston to Manchester two weeks ago and first class was full to the brim. Fortunately I paid a tenner upgrade when I booked my seats in advanced a month or so earlier

[gothicform]

lucky you. ecml first class is never full at peak times!

[Irish Blood English Heart]

Originally Posted by gothicform

lucky you. ecml first class is never full at peak times!

It has been for me going from Newcastle to Edinburgh on a Friday and from London to Newcastle. Perhaps its just the stopping services that don't have as many first class customers but the ones to Scotland certainly can do.

[gothicform]

yeah in all fairness i do take the services that go to newark, they have more stops so perhaps less customers though last time i took the ecml i had a first class ticket and becauase the previous service had been cancelled they opedn first class up to everyone. i had to fucking stand for over one hour! they were actually turfing people off at stevenage because the train was so overloaded (god knows how they got home as it was the last train of the night).

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by U Thant

Pendelinos are complex integrated multiple units that can't be lengthened as easily as HSTs, though it's still ridiculous to be inviting an outside party to come in and do it.

True but I bet if you had the book for modifying them that explained it all, it wouldn't be that bad.

[gothicform]

shows you though how forwards thinking the govt is seeing that trains are bought, trains they knew would have to be upgraded in a decade and were difficult to upgrade despite them planning to upgrade the line further. anything to save a bit of money straight away to pay more later. wankers.

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by gothicform

shows you though how forwards thinking the govt is seeing that trains are bought, trains they knew would have to be upgraded in a decade and were difficult to upgrade despite them planning to upgrade the line further. anything to save a bit of money straight away to pay more later. wankers.

Well said. They do it with everything.

[Chrisyd]

In terms of "Declassifying" as Virgin call it, the 5pm and 5.30pm on a Friday from Birmingham to Euston often seem to have coach G declassified. Meaning I have to share my table for 2 "crammed" in the remaining coaches in first class.
Interestingly if you look at the coach lettering, it currently has A-F (with B missing) as Standard Class and G-K as First Class (with I missing).

In the latest Virgin Publications they have described the final split as being a far more sensible 7 and 4, suggesting first class may not have taken off as they dreamt back in 99 when the order was placed.

I think aesthetically, the sets will look a lot sleeker when they are 11 carriages long.

Also from watching Thomas the Tank Engine, I do not recall the episode when Gordon the Big Blue Engine had to spend two weeks in the shed whilst "Contractor the Expensive engine", not from the Isle of Sodor, came and added two extra carriages to the express train for him!!!

[cle]

Can many stations take 11 cars - even for the larger stations, this is much longer than many are used to?

First class is their bread and butter though, businessmen buying open 1st class returns to Manchester on the day for £300.

If you're ever in first and it's declassified to the great unwashed, write a letter and you'll get vouchers back.

[Vince Noir]

DfT reaches agreement with Alstom for new Pendolinos. Virgin and Govia shortlisted as delivery partners.

http://www.alstom.com/pr_corp_v2/200...Courante=23132

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fu...partment=False

[elfabyanos]

Excellent, at last they've given Alsthom notice to proceed. It's a shame they'll take so long to be delivered, but I'm certainly not going to moan about it.

[rjeffroy]

Hmm, what happened to the second option (to buy up 23 new trains)? No mention in either of the press releases.

[elfabyanos]

I think that has been scrapped if it existed (I'm unaware of such a proposal). It looks to me like the best option they've gone for at the moment - train lengthening is the best interim measure (before HS2 fingers crossed!) as the line capacity isn't really up to supporting more services than will be implemented for 2009. The original order was made under the Railtrack era when they were trying to implement in-cab signalling - that would have allowed more trains per hour to leave London other pinch points like the west mids, and then 20 or so more trains may have made sense, perhaps that was the original proposal? But it would have depended on the in-cab signalling?

[rjeffroy]

Option B is mentioned in the DfT accreditation document

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/pe...reditation.pdf

(See page 10 'Fleet Composition Requirements')

The suggestion was that the extra trains would allow diesel Voyager units to be replaced on Birmingham - Scotland services.

[amirtaheri]

I just see this as something of a stop gap measure. My opinion is that they should invest and take the plunge and begin modifying bridges and tunnels to accept two decker/duplex carriages like they have on the continent. That way one can practically double capacity to fill demand and make travel just that little better!

I mean yes, it'd be expensive in terms of capital, but the future benefits in capacity would surely outweigh this?

What does everyone else think?

[elfabyanos]

Originally Posted by rjeffroy

Option B is mentioned in the DfT accreditation document

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/pe...reditation.pdf

(See page 10 'Fleet Composition Requirements')

The suggestion was that the extra trains would allow diesel Voyager units to be replaced on Birmingham - Scotland services.

Very interesting, thanks. At the moment VWC only have 16 super voyagers, the equivalent of about 10 pendolinos, and only about 10 of the SVs must be on the Brum-Scotland route, and don't they run in multiple? From this I assume that this indicates the possibility of a considerable service expansion even beyond the high frequency service to be implemented this decmeber - which is good!!! Does anyone have any ideas? Personally I think they should electrify Manchester and Liverpool services to Scotland, as well as branches to Blackpool to provide a direct service there too. Perhaps this is under consultation?

Originally Posted by amirtaheri

I just see this as something of a stop gap measure. My opinion is that they should invest and take the plunge and begin modifying bridges and tunnels to accept two decker/duplex carriages like they have on the continent. That way one can practically double capacity to fill demand and make travel just that little better!

I mean yes, it'd be expensive in terms of capital, but the future benefits in capacity would surely outweigh this?

What does everyone else think?

This stopgap will be until HS2 is operational I hope. They certainly shouldn't do any further modernisation of the WCML - Network Rail have ruled out a similar upgrade of the ECML on the back of the outcome of the WCML - it's too costly for the benefits, hard work, and results in a system that is better yes, but not really that much better considering the years of torture the current passengers have been put through. A fresh start is what we really need, and is the only option to get London - Glasgow in under 3 hours.

[HollyBlack]

Originally Posted by rjeffroy
Option B is mentioned in the DfT accreditation document http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/pe...reditation.pdf (See page 10 'Fleet Composition Requirements')
The suggestion was that the extra trains would allow diesel Voyager units to be replaced on Birmingham - Scotland services.

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

... Personally I think they should electrify Manchester and Liverpool services to Scotland, as well as branches to Blackpool to provide a direct service there too. Perhaps this is under consultation?
This stopgap will be until HS2 is operational I hope.

It is crazy not to electrify all traction will all possible haste. The Export Land Model explains why retail oil supplies will fall faster than oil production rates and diesel prices will continue to skyrocket. For example, Iran is a major oil exporter today but will be a net importer in 10 years time.

Electrifying Liverpool-Manchester via Newton-le-Willows would allow electric services from each to Scotland as well as electric train freight from the Port of Liverpool to most places. Electrifying Manchester-Preston is fraught with all manner of technical difficulties and tram-style slow speed, low voltage electrification would be a better bet. Reopening the Woodhead to link Manchester with ECML by an electric railway is a further important move needed for freight and for diversion routing to improve reliability.

It is likely the HST2 (IEP) will attract no bids and the process will have to go back to the drawing board. No-one wants to build diesel passenger trains, since they have no long term profit possibilities. Even building electric sets and hauling them off-the-wires with a separate diesel loco would be a better idea. Diesel freight may be a different matter.

[gothicform]

well the upgrade of the ecml involves simply electrifying the entire line and sticking incab signalling in (the incab signalling alone will allow 140mph running). it doesnt require the vast vast work the wcml does. network rail just dont want to pay for anythign at all. the bulk of the upgrade work was done 20 years ago, the trains are capable of running at 140, just sodding finish what you started.

[elfabyanos]

Originally Posted by HollyBlack

Electrifying Liverpool-Manchester via Newton-le-Willows would allow electric services from each to Scotland as well as electric train freight from the Port of Liverpool to most places. Electrifying Manchester-Preston is fraught with all manner of technical difficulties and tram-style slow speed, low voltage electrification would be a better bet. Reopening the Woodhead to link Manchester with ECML by an electric railway is a further important move needed for freight and for diversion routing to improve reliability.

I think the line from Newtn-le-willows should definately be electrified, I'd go all the way to Manchester, maybe this could also be the Manchester to Scotland route too as there is the appropriate junction on the WCML. I would electrify all the way to Hull via Piccadilly, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Leeds and Selby. The only real slow bit for HSTs is the western approaches to Manchester. The north east line out of Manc could be upgraded for higher speeds, but at the moment OMG! Once took the train from Piccadilly to Southport - so slow.

The price of oil is not going to go down - the governments have got their head in the sand if they don't realise this. Prominent financial companies are prophecising $200/barrel before the year is out! CEO of Easyjet says weaker airlines are going to fold and very fast, which will bring an end the era of low cost airlines, or at least almost-no-cost airlines. The time is now.

Originally Posted by gothicform

well the upgrade of the ecml involves simply electrifying the entire line and sticking incab signalling in (the incab signalling alone will allow 140mph running). it doesnt require the vast vast work the wcml does. network rail just dont want to pay for anythign at all. the bulk of the upgrade work was done 20 years ago, the trains are capable of running at 140, just sodding finish what you started.

So true. If only they'd gone ahead and added the tilt technology to the mark IVs as well. The incab signalling is a bit of an issue, they need to put it in every vehicle cab that may run on the line. By the time they implement it the current stock will have been replaced.

[Mostly Lurking]

Originally Posted by gothicform

well the upgrade of the ecml involves simply electrifying the entire line and sticking incab signalling in (the incab signalling alone will allow 140mph running). it doesnt require the vast vast work the wcml does. network rail just dont want to pay for anythign at all. the bulk of the upgrade work was done 20 years ago, the trains are capable of running at 140, just sodding finish what you started.

I know your not saying otherwise, but I'm just adding that the Pendolinos on the WCML are capable of 140mph too

Originally Posted by elfabyanos

So true. If only they'd gone ahead and added the tilt technology to the mark IVs as well. The incab signalling is a bit of an issue, they need to put it in every vehicle cab that may run on the line. By the time they implement it the current stock will have been replaced.

What difference would tilt on the ECML make? It is much MUCH straighter than the WCML to start with, and the sections that aren't (much further north) are not suitable for tilt anyway due to track condition.

What would it save - two minutes off London to Newcastle timings - for how much cost?