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Old February 11th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Don't forget the gauge problem...
what gauge problem ? They have the same gauge
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Old February 11th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #62
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Yes, but Rail Baltica is proposed to be standard gauge, and building the tunnel with broad gauge would reduce its attractiveness for traffic between Finland and the european standard gauge network.
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Old February 11th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #63
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How much is interlaced track wider than one gauge alone?

Also what shall the loading gauge of the 1435 mm Rail Baltica be?
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Old February 11th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Also what shall the loading gauge of the 1435 mm Rail Baltica be?
It's a good question. Common for Baltic states structure gauge С and corresponding loading gauge T is bigger than classical G2 and similar loading gauges in Europe...

Loading gauge T

Loading gauge G2
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Old February 12th, 2012, 05:35 AM   #65
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Why wait so long and not start building it.. now?
Don't forget that such project would need extensive preparation work and early planning stages and advanced geological surveys would cost a fortune. Add that both Estonia & Finland are having many costly projects in process right now (rolling stock upgrades in both countries,Helsinki Ring Rail Line,Rail Baltica in Estonia etc),which take big share of investment budgets and it's clear that even on fastest possible way project planning simply can't start in this decade.

I think it's realistic to assume that Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel will be considered more seriously on government levels,once the Rail Baltica is up & running (~2025 onwards)

Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel might sound like a crazy idea right now,but for comparison - not so long ago Channel tunnel was also considered to be utopian dream and yet it exists today
Btw,ferries carry 7 million passengers between Helsinki & Tallinn in each year and crossing takes ~1,5h.
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Old February 13th, 2012, 08:58 AM   #66
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I'd say more like 2h-3,5h. The ferry(boat?) that does it in 1,5h is very small and so unstable that it doesn't travel whenever there's wind....or rain, pretty much not to mention in winter.
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Old February 13th, 2012, 09:57 AM   #67
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I'd say more like 2h-3,5h. The ferry(boat?) that does it in 1,5h is very small and so unstable that it doesn't travel whenever there's wind....or rain, pretty much not to mention in winter.
Indeed. Tallink Star and Tallink Superstar take 2 hours and travel throughout winter.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 10:09 PM   #68
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Just wondered: there are lots of talking about railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn.

But what about also a tunnel for cars near railway tunnel?
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Old March 5th, 2014, 12:25 AM   #69
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an 80 km subsea tunnel for road vehicles is practically impossible because of ventilation problems and danger (fatigue, risk of distraction, monotony, ...)...
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Old March 6th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #70
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Just wondered: there are lots of talking about railway tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn.

But what about also a tunnel for cars near railway tunnel?

What might be considered is a shuttle train like in La Manche. Pure road tunnel would be trouble.
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Old March 6th, 2014, 06:04 PM   #71
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What might be considered is a shuttle train like in La Manche. Pure road tunnel would be trouble.
Given that the channel tunnel still strives to recover its cost, with a much higher volume of traffic than what might be expected from a Finland-Estonia
link, I do not believe this project would be economically feasable.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 12:17 AM   #72
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Well, the current passenger flow between Tallinn and Helsinki is 7.5 million passengers a year. The Channel Tunnel has 20 million a year. That's considerably more, yes, but the Tallinn-Helsinki tunnel would also be several times less expensive to build. 2007 estimates put the cost around €2.2-2.7 billion. Even if it were €5 billion, it would still be roughly 3 times cheaper than the Channel tunnel which cost almost €15 billion in today's money.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 08:41 AM   #73
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the Tallinn-Helsinki tunnel would also be several times less expensive to build.
Can someone explain why this massive difference ? After all, it's located in coastal waters for both cases, and the Tallinn-Helsinki tunnel would be considerably longer.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 08:53 AM   #74
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IIRC the geology between Helsinki and Tallinn is such that a tunnel could be bored through bedrock for most of the 80km, which is supposed to be relatively cheap..

The future belongs to competitive and attractive urban areas, Helsinki and Tallinn as one commuting area with a possible rail connection to central Europe in the future would be considerably better placed in such a competition. Worth something around €5 billion? I think so. Specially with the current interest rates, Finland could borrow for rates that would see much of the loan be eaten away by inflation.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #75
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It is just impossible with existing tech. Tallinn has 400k population while Helsinki less than 600k. It would be enough with 3 trains per day or less to connect them. Ticket on such trains would be extremely expensive. No big potential for freight also while Rail Baltic isn't finished. There are no chances EU would fund such project. But project and research could be made. In future tunnels wil become cheaper and it will be possible to build it. And project, geological research etc. will be made already.
I agree with this. It simply doesn't seem worth the cost.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 06:15 PM   #76
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Helsinki does have population of over 600k and 1.1 million urban area, if that really changes anything.

While this is still mostly laughable idea, I can vaguely start seeing some kind of sense with creating tighter economic with such a heavy solution.
At the same time there's some investments tied from both countries to the ferries operating at the moment. There's also Finnish and no doubt Estonian companies like Wärtsilä that I'm sure would want to see there being strong home market to install their maritime solutions.

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Old March 8th, 2014, 11:47 AM   #77
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Can someone explain why this massive difference ? After all, it's located in coastal waters for both cases, and the Tallinn-Helsinki tunnel would be considerably longer.
Tallinn-Helsinki tunnel would most likely be "bored" by explosives since the bulk of the tunnel would be in granite. Granite is quite easy for tunneling since it can bear its own weight. If you look at the highway, railway or metro tunnels in Finland or Sweden, the walls of the tunnels are mostly just covered with shotcrete (sprayed concrete).

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Originally Posted by tonttula View Post
Helsinki does have population of over 600k and 1.1 million urban area, if that really changes anything.

While this is still mostly laughable idea, I can vaguely start seeing some kind of sense with creating tighter economic with such a heavy solution.
At the same time there's some investments tied from both countries to the ferries operating at the moment. There's also Finnish and no doubt Estonian companies like Wärtsilä that I'm sure would want to see there being strong home market to install their maritime solutions.
The Öresund connection cost around €4 billion, by the way, and nobody is doubting whether that was a reasonable investment.

But I agree, even though it might be viable in the long run, it most likely won't happen since it requires political commitment on a scale that at least the politicians in Estonia don't comprehend. The construction of this tunnel would probably take around 20 years which is a huge time scale for political decisions.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 11:48 AM   #78
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The future belongs to competitive and attractive urban areas, Helsinki and Tallinn as one commuting area with a possible rail connection to central Europe in the future would be considerably better placed in such a competition. Worth something around €5 billion? I think so. Specially with the current interest rates, Finland could borrow for rates that would see much of the loan be eaten away by inflation.
But where is that good link to Europe? At the moment, the Baltic states' link to Poland is almost inexistant and/or to slow to consider. Also, neither country has the hinterland population that would make such a rail connection more interesting. Would not the future for the region rather lie in an integration of Talinn and Helsinki with St. Petersburg? This is currently unthinkable, due on the one hand to EU Schengen paranoia and on the other hand to Russian neo-imperialism, but maybe someday a stronger integration of the region would again be feasible.
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Old March 9th, 2014, 10:13 PM   #79
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But where is that good link to Europe? At the moment, the Baltic states' link to Poland is almost inexistant and/or to slow to consider.
True, I would see it more as a possible long term option enabled by the tunnel. Freight traffic by trains might benefit even with existing infrastructure. The long term goal should be a high speed Baltic circle connecting all the Baltic sea cities (in my dreams).

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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Also, neither country has the hinterland population that would make such a rail connection more interesting. Would not the future for the region rather lie in an integration of Talinn and Helsinki with St. Petersburg? This is currently unthinkable, due on the one hand to EU Schengen paranoia and on the other hand to Russian neo-imperialism, but maybe someday a stronger integration of the region would again be feasible.
Well better connections with (a sane) Russia would be good as well, but I don't think traffic between St. Petersburg and Helsinki can ever connect the two cities in to one region. A rail tunnel between Tallinn and Helsinki might see centre to centre traffic in ~30min though. The same tunnel could be extended to the Helsinki-Vantaa airport as well.

Anyway, I would like to see a price tag that has some certainty behind it at the very least to be able to make some sort of informed decision.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 12:22 AM   #80
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But where is that good link to Europe? At the moment, the Baltic states' link to Poland is almost inexistant and/or to slow to consider.
Well, Rail Baltic should change that. If it gets built, we will have a 240km/h standard gauge connection to Poland.
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