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Old April 8th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #741
Penn's Woods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The freeway doesn't mean it's free of use (no tolls), but free flow. But I can see calling a toll road a freeway would be a bit weird.
Are you sure about that (If you don't mind a newcomer questioning you? :-) ) My understanding has always been that "freeway" meant toll-free expressway. But don't ask me for a source: I've had that in my head for at least 30 years.

Another thing about American highway vocabulary. Limited access, originally at least, had nothing to do with interchanges and no traffic lights and so on (although a limited-access road will tend to have those characteristics). Historically, in English law (and in the legal system inherited by other English-speaking countries), a landowner had the right to access any road crossing or adjoining his property. So when they wanted to start building high-speed roads appropriate for cars, they needed to come up with a way to prevent homeowners building driveways right onto them.... a "limited access" road meant a road on which that right of access, legally, didn't apply. Can't give a source on that either; picked it up in a law book somewhere, back when I thought I'd be a lawyer.

Last edited by Penn's Woods; April 8th, 2010 at 11:03 PM.
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Old April 8th, 2010, 10:42 PM   #742
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Wikipedia:
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In the United States, the term freeway is used in many regions. In some regions of the U.S., other terms are used, including Interstate, thruway, highway, expressway, and turnpike. While some use these terms interchangeably, turnpikes and thruways sometimes have associations with toll roads and other limited access highways, such as the New Jersey Turnpike, Ohio Turnpike, Pennsylvania Turnpike, West Virginia Turnpike, Florida's Turnpike, and New York State Thruway; consequently, the term freeway is sometimes used to refer to a toll-free road[1][2] as opposed to its original meaning[3][4] – in which the component "free" implies freedom from traffic interference rather than "at no cost" – still used in other countries and in parts of the U.S.
Meanwhile, it became uncommon to call toll roads in the United States a freeway. However, for example, in Taiwan, where the freeways are based on the U.S. freeway system, freeways can also be tolled.

I think the original meaning of a freeway (free-flow) has been replaced by the fact that they're toll free. However, you wouldn't call a regular highway or road a freeway, even if they're free of tolls, right?
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Old April 8th, 2010, 11:01 PM   #743
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I would use the terms freeway and expressway more or less interchangeably (and thus incorrectly, according to some): to mean limited-access road in its newer sense - American equivalent of motorway, autoroute, voie express, autosnelweg.... The difference to me is purely regional. Having lived all my life in the corridor between New York and Washington, the term "expressway" comes more naturally to me, so I really don't need to know whether a freeway can be a toll road (an expressway can be - the Atlantic City Expressway is). US 22 in most of New Jersey - I use that example because I grew up very near it - is not expressway, to my mind, because of the traffic lights and adjoining businesses. The few miles at the Newark end are arguably an expressway.

Something I've noticed on recent drives: On US 1 between the Maryland-Pennsylvania border and Kennett Square, Pa., you get a warning as you approach the first northbound traffic light: "Expressway Ends [and the distance]". 40 miles or so from there in the same state, on US 30 eastbound east of Lancaster, it's "Freeway Ends". I wonder whether that was an official change in terminology in Pennsylvania (don't know which road's older) or just whatever they felt like putting on the signs.
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Old April 8th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #744
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Also, a turnpike (given its original meaning) ought to be a toll road. I still find the name Connecticut Turnpike anomalous, but justified since it used to be a toll road.
(As I write, I'm about a mile and a half from the beginning of the first turnpike in the U.S.)
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Old April 8th, 2010, 11:15 PM   #745
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A lot of historic roads have names like the xxx Turnpike (for example, Jericho Turnpike, Hempstead Turnpike, Union Turnpike etc.) because they used to be toll roads in the early 1900's.

These Turnpikes predate the current Turnpikes (like the Ohio Turnpike, Pennsylvania Turnpike, Kansas Turnpike) and are not to freeway standards at all.
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Old April 8th, 2010, 11:20 PM   #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A lot of historic roads have names like the xxx Turnpike (for example, Jericho Turnpike, Hempstead Turnpike, Union Turnpike etc.) because they used to be toll roads in the early 1900's.

These Turnpikes predate the current Turnpikes (like the Ohio Turnpike, Pennsylvania Turnpike, Kansas Turnpike) and are not to freeway standards at all.
Exactly. I'm sitting about a mile and a half from the east end of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philade...aster_Turnpike

(and "Pike" is a variant on "turnpike" for a lot of those roads).

What I really meant by the Connecticut Turnpike example was, in the context of modern highways, it seemed odd that it was called a turnpike after they took the tolls off. I sort of kept expecting them to change the name. And I certainly wouldn't build a new highway, call it a turnpike, and not have it be a toll road.

Last edited by Penn's Woods; April 8th, 2010 at 11:25 PM.
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Old April 8th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #747
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Here's how I like to define it/ what we say in California:

Freeway: Divided, complete access control, typically free of cost, 2+ lanes each way, typically urban/suburban.
Turnpike: (called a "toll road" here in California) Like a freeway, but has a toll.
Expressway: Usually divided with some control of access but a number of at-grade intersections.
Highway: Undivided, rural, no access control. (or a rural Interstate)

And if a turnpike no longer had a toll, I wouldn't expect it to still be called a turnpike. That'd be like saying it's a toll-free toll road.

Last edited by verum; April 8th, 2010 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Being [b]bold[/b].
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Old April 8th, 2010, 11:55 PM   #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Are you sure about that (If you don't mind a newcomer questioning you? :-) ) My understanding has always been that "freeway" meant toll-free expressway. But don't ask me for a source: I've had that in my head for at least 30 years.

Another thing about American highway vocabulary. Limited access, originally at least, had nothing to do with interchanges and no traffic lights and so on (although a limited-access road will tend to have those characteristics). Historically, in English law (and in the legal system inherited by other English-speaking countries), a landowner had the right to access any road crossing or adjoining his property. So when they wanted to start building high-speed roads appropriate for cars, they needed to come up with a way to prevent homeowners building driveways right onto them.... a "limited access" road meant a road on which that right of access, legally, didn't apply. Can't give a source on that either; picked it up in a law book somewhere, back when I thought I'd be a lawyer.
There's a scenic road near my area called the Blue Ridge Parkway, and it's classified as a national park. Commercial vehicles and alcoholic beverages are forbidden. It's just a rural mountain two-lane road with periodic turnoffs for an overlook if there's a nice view somewhere.

It pretty much fits the definition of limited access. There are some small interchanges with other roads every once in a while, and no other access to it, and no place that's not part of it (such as a campground or hiking trail) has a parking lot or driveway attached to it. There are no traffic lights, and there are two areas I know of where the road is more than two lanes, both for some semi-major attractions on it. Neither section is longer than a quarter-mile long with more than two lanes. Soft shoulders, 2x1, 45 MPH speed limit, no traffic lights, no stopping necessary once you're on it. Pretty simple. But that's all you need with all the great views...
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Old April 8th, 2010, 11:59 PM   #749
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Originally Posted by verum View Post
And if a turnpike no longer had a toll, I wouldn't expect it to still be called a turnpike. That'd be like saying it's a toll-free toll road.
Yes, but California doesn't have any late-18th/early-19th century turnpikes still using their historic names. There are lots of them in the east. I'd put that in a different category than the so-called Connecticut Turnpike which should at this point be just plain I-95 (or 395, depending where you are).
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Old April 9th, 2010, 12:07 AM   #750
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I guess not. I do remember quite a bit of turnpikes when I was in New England last, but that had to have been ten years ago. Sometimes it seems that east/west USA are almost like two different countries!
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Old April 9th, 2010, 12:13 AM   #751
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heres a few pictures i took on Tuesday...

Rivervale Road North : Rivervale

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr


CR 503 / Kinderkamack Road South - Hillsdale

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr


CR ...? Hillsdale Ave West - Hillsdale

image hosted on flickr

image hosted on flickr


A new type of Pavement marking?

image hosted on flickr


~Corey
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Old April 9th, 2010, 06:40 AM   #752
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Old April 12th, 2010, 01:17 AM   #753
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Washington Hwy 99 (West Seattle Bridge to Seneca St.)



Ruston tunnel (Ruston, WA)

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Old April 12th, 2010, 03:38 AM   #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A lot of historic roads have names like the xxx Turnpike (for example, Jericho Turnpike, Hempstead Turnpike, Union Turnpike etc.) because they used to be toll roads in the early 1900's.

These Turnpikes predate the current Turnpikes (like the Ohio Turnpike, Pennsylvania Turnpike, Kansas Turnpike) and are not to freeway standards at all.
Colonial, 1800s, and pre-highway turnpikes are referred to really as just "pikes". I don't think I've ever seen one still called a "turnpike". "Pike" has become the suffix for these roads, just like "street", "road", "boulevard", etc, whereas turnpikes in modern times include "turnpike" in the full name.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 04:30 AM   #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verum View Post
Here's how I like to define it/ what we say in California:

Freeway: Divided, complete access control, typically free of cost, 2+ lanes each way, typically urban/suburban.
Turnpike: (called a "toll road" here in California) Like a freeway, but has a toll.
Expressway: Usually divided with some control of access but a number of at-grade intersections.
Highway: Undivided, rural, no access control. (or a rural Interstate)

And if a turnpike no longer had a toll, I wouldn't expect it to still be called a turnpike. That'd be like saying it's a toll-free toll road.
I have to disagree with the "rural/urban/suburban" designations for Freeway and Highway. All limited access roads should be considered a Freeway. Highways are usually numbered routes (U.S. or California state) and can be either divided or undivided.

I-5 through the Central Valley is called the Westside Freeway and I-15 east of Barstow is called the Mojave Freeway. Both routes are rural Interstates.
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Old April 12th, 2010, 05:42 PM   #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xzmattzx View Post
Colonial, 1800s, and pre-highway turnpikes are referred to really as just "pikes". I don't think I've ever seen one still called a "turnpike". "Pike" has become the suffix for these roads, just like "street", "road", "boulevard", etc, whereas turnpikes in modern times include "turnpike" in the full name.

May be a regional thing: Chris' examples (Jericho Turnpike, etc.), from Queens and Long Island, all still call themselves X Turnpike. But I can't think of any non-toll "Turnpikes" in the Philadelphia/South Jersey/Wilmington area....
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Old April 12th, 2010, 06:00 PM   #757
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So i went to Newark Yesterday and heres sum of the roads i took.

Garden State Parkway - South my town

image hosted on flickr


Notice anything different?

image hosted on flickr


approaching the I-80 Interchange / Underpass

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Passaic River Bridge

image hosted on flickr


Nearby US - 46 Bridge

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


US - 46 Interchange

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Approaching NJ-3 Interchange

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Exiting the Garden State Parkway onto NJ - 3

image hosted on flickr


NJ - 3 East - Clifton

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Exiting NJ - 3 to NJ 21 South

image hosted on flickr


Up next : NJ 21

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Old April 21st, 2010, 01:14 AM   #758
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How about some desert highways?
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Old April 21st, 2010, 05:40 AM   #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
May be a regional thing: Chris' examples (Jericho Turnpike, etc.), from Queens and Long Island, all still call themselves X Turnpike. But I can't think of any non-toll "Turnpikes" in the Philadelphia/South Jersey/Wilmington area....
I guess you're right. I don't know much about old colonial roads on Long Island or in that area. But like you, I can't think of any instances of "Turnpike" as a suffix, whether in South Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, or Northern Virginia.
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Old April 21st, 2010, 05:21 PM   #760
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God bless Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._United_States

Of course any such designation as "turnpike," these days, is just a local street name. Like calling Del. 52 "Delaware Avenue" or "Kennett Pike," depending whether you're in Wilmington or outside it. To clarify (for those of you not from the east coast....), this does not mean that tolls are still collected on these roads. We're talking about former toll roads, privately built from the 1790s until railroads started to take over long distance transportation, that have held onto their historic names at least for local use.

Last edited by Penn's Woods; April 21st, 2010 at 05:28 PM.
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