daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 9th, 2011, 09:23 AM   #1301
Alex Von Königsberg
Registered User
 
Alex Von Königsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,053
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
Instead of priority laws we use 4-way "STOP" sings at every intersection (on minor roads) and traffic lights on major roads which seems to be a safer way of controlling traffic than the priority law. What if you forget you are not on a priority road and don't yield at an intersection? Consequences can be very sad.
4-way STOP is the most inefficient way of controlling traffic You make people stop for no reason and waist fuel (not to mention time). Why require everyone stop unconditionally if it makes much more sense to require a full stop only if there is need for this? Replacing STOP signs with YIELD signs on non-priority roads and replacing 4-way STOP with roundabouts would make much more sense.
__________________
Go Cougs!
Alex Von Königsberg no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 9th, 2011, 10:15 AM   #1302
Rail Claimore
Registered User
 
Rail Claimore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,152
Likes (Received): 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdly_dood View Post
False. Some states use a simple square to designate state highway (as opposed to US highway) numbers. See this page. Take out "Speed Limit" and someone might think they're driving on Route 55 with no idea what the speed limit is, and they'd be quite justified in thinking this.
They still think this if they don't read signs carefully. Chicago cops make a killing giving speeding tickets to out-of-state drivers who think the speed limit on Cicero Avenue is 50 when Cicero Avenue is actually state route 50.
Rail Claimore no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2011, 04:41 PM   #1303
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,547

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
These European signs are much easier to understand than textual signs in 25 languages.

All text in this photo can be replaced by this single sign:
But that sign is one of the worst non-text signs - non-intuitive, having to be learned. The Irish sign is more text based, but more obvious. Given 'P' appears on parking signs in the UK (not sure about elsewhere) anyway, a P in a red circle with a line through it would be far better.
sotonsi está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2011, 05:36 PM   #1304
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

I've been meaning to ask: I thought a P in a red circle with a line through it was the international no-parking sign. Am I mistaken or did that change?
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2011, 05:40 PM   #1305
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,587
Likes (Received): 19376

Apparently it is only used in Ireland (in Europe). The "international" signs are usually those in the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals There are also a number of local exceptions or additions which suits the local needs, but road signs are pretty much standard across Europe.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2011, 08:08 PM   #1306
mgk920
Nonhyphenated-American
 
mgk920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Appleton, WI USA
Posts: 2,583
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
But that sign is one of the worst non-text signs - non-intuitive, having to be learned. The Irish sign is more text based, but more obvious. Given 'P' appears on parking signs in the UK (not sure about elsewhere) anyway, a P in a red circle with a line through it would be far better.
The 'P' in a red circle/slash is the 'NO PARKING' sign used here in the USA.

Mike
mgk920 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 07:14 AM   #1307
Trilesy
Registered User
 
Trilesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 116
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
4-way STOP is the most inefficient way of controlling traffic You make people stop for no reason and waist fuel (not to mention time). Why require everyone stop unconditionally if it makes much more sense to require a full stop only if there is need for this? Replacing STOP signs with YIELD signs on non-priority roads and replacing 4-way STOP with roundabouts would make much more sense.
Roundabouts require more physical space which is not available in compact suburban areas (where most of the 4-way STOP signs are).

I agree that 4-way STOP signs increase fuel consumption and "wear and tear" on cars, but I do believe that it's a safer way of controlling traffic on less busy roads than the "yield" concept.

From what I know a STOP sign is rarely used in Europe, but it is probably the most commonly used sign in the U.S.
Trilesy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 08:01 AM   #1308
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
The 'P' in a red circle/slash is the 'NO PARKING' sign used here in the USA.

Mike
Well, plenty of places (including the city of Philadelphia, at least in my neighborhood - I looked carefully when I went out right after that post) still spell out "No Parking." So I've always assumed the P-with-the-slash was something international we'd adopted.
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 08:03 AM   #1309
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
Roundabouts require more physical space which is not available in compact suburban areas (where most of the 4-way STOP signs are).

I agree that 4-way STOP signs increase fuel consumption and "wear and tear" on cars, but I do believe that it's a safer way of controlling traffic on less busy roads than the "yield" concept.

From what I know a STOP sign is rarely used in Europe, but it is probably the most commonly used sign in the U.S.
Is the difference in fuel consumption and wear-and-tear between stopping and yielding significant? (And what effect does the turning and such necessary to maneuver around a roundabout have, that stopping and starting again, in a straight line, doesn't?)
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 08:03 AM   #1310
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,529
Likes (Received): 21231

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
From what I know a STOP sign is rarely used in Europe, but it is probably the most commonly used sign in the U.S.
STOP signs (written always in English regardless of the country, by the way) are common in Europe. They are usually coupled, in many places, with an horizontal painting that helps you to reassure you are or not in a priority road.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 10:48 AM   #1311
Alex Von Königsberg
Registered User
 
Alex Von Königsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,053
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
Roundabouts require more physical space which is not available in compact suburban areas (where most of the 4-way STOP signs are).
I am sorry, but words 'compact' and 'suburban' don't go together When planning for a new intersection, a one-lane roundabout can typically be constructed instead of a 4-way stop intersection. You don't have to convert all existing 4-way stop intersections to roundabouts at once.

Quote:
I agree that 4-way STOP signs increase fuel consumption and "wear and tear" on cars, but I do believe that it's a safer way of controlling traffic on less busy roads than the "yield" concept.
Can you elaborate how exactly unnecessary stops increase safety? As far as I understand, "yield" concept is more flexible because it does not force you to stop when the road is clear. Why is it less safe? By the way, the Federal DOT finally realised this and changed its recommendation to allow installing "yield" signs at perpendicular intersections.

Quote:
From what I know a STOP sign is rarely used in Europe, but it is probably the most commonly used sign in the U.S.
In Europe, STOP sign is used in situations where it is hard to see approaching traffic. If you can see for hundred metres both ways, then there is no need for STOP signs.
__________________
Go Cougs!
Alex Von Königsberg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 11:39 AM   #1312
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 890

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
Roundabouts require more physical space which is not available in compact suburban areas (where most of the 4-way STOP signs are).

I agree that 4-way STOP signs increase fuel consumption and "wear and tear" on cars, but I do believe that it's a safer way of controlling traffic on less busy roads than the "yield" concept.

From what I know a STOP sign is rarely used in Europe, but it is probably the most commonly used sign in the U.S.
Stop signs are common on mainland Europe, in some countries more than others, very rare in the UK and somehwere in the middle in Ireland
DanielFigFoz está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 04:56 PM   #1313
Trilesy
Registered User
 
Trilesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 116
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Is the difference in fuel consumption and wear-and-tear between stopping and yielding significant? (And what effect does the turning and such necessary to maneuver around a roundabout have, that stopping and starting again, in a straight line, doesn't?)
I don't have any data unfortunately, but it would be nice to know. It's probably not very significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
I am sorry, but words 'compact' and 'suburban' don't go together When planning for a new intersection, a one-lane roundabout can typically be constructed instead of a 4-way stop intersection. You don't have to convert all existing 4-way stop intersections to roundabouts at once.
I've seen only 1 roundabout around Cincinnati and it's hard for me to see them building more in the existing neighborhoods because of lack of space. It might be different for new developments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Can you elaborate how exactly unnecessary stops increase safety? As far as I understand, "yield" concept is more flexible because it does not force you to stop when the road is clear. Why is it less safe? By the way, the Federal DOT finally realised this and changed its recommendation to allow installing "yield" signs at perpendicular intersections.
I guess when I was saying that 4-way STOP signs are safer I was opposing those yellow-on-white priority signs (the way they are used in Europe). My main concern with those is that drivers can forget they are on a non-priority road and not yield when they are supposed to. Especially when you drive on an unfamiliar route and miss one of those priority signs (whereas with a STOP sign this problem is avoided).

The actual "Yield" sign would make more sense to me, but even that is questionable.
Trilesy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 05:02 PM   #1314
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

4-Way stops are put in places where there is usually a decent amount of pedestrian traffic or a street that needs traffic calming... These intersections don't meet Traffic light requirements... Most Major Railroad / Parkway towns in the Northeast have Roundabouts , there small and have Traffic Meter lights that are activated during rush hr. Newer Large Scale Developments come with either Roundabouts or Lights.
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 05:12 PM   #1315
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
...I've seen only 1 roundabout around Cincinnati and it's hard for me to see them building more in the existing neighborhoods because of lack of space. It might be different for new developments....
I suppose in suburban areas they'd also need to buy up little quarter-circles of people's property to accommodate them. But they're proliferating wildly in rural areas of Maryland and northern Virginia. Can't think of any I've seen in Pennsylvania...no, wait, I think there's one....
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 07:00 PM   #1316
Alex Von Königsberg
Registered User
 
Alex Von Königsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,053
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
I guess when I was saying that 4-way STOP signs are safer I was opposing those yellow-on-white priority signs (the way they are used in Europe). My main concern with those is that drivers can forget they are on a non-priority road and not yield when they are supposed to. Especially when you drive on an unfamiliar route and miss one of those priority signs (whereas with a STOP sign this problem is avoided).
Actually, a 4-way STOP intersection should only be compared with a roundabout because both indicate equal priority from all sides. Thus, the European priority sign (yellow diamond) does not come into play here.

You should not worry about drivers forgetting that they are on non-priority road because typically "priority" sign on main road is accompanied by "yield" sign on secondary road. In the USA, there is only a STOP sign on secondary road in this exact situation.

Having driven in Europe before moving to the USA, I can tell you that European and US systems make you think differently when dealing with priority/non-priority situations. In the USA, in the absence of any signs, you assume you have a priority unless it is a T-intersection or your road is clearly a secondary road, whereas in Europe you have to make sure you are not on a secondary road before you proceed through the intersection. In either case it does not involve a lot of brain activity because the process becomes rather automatic with time
__________________
Go Cougs!
Alex Von Königsberg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 05:38 AM   #1318
desertpunk
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
 
desertpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ELP ~ ABQ
Posts: 55,643
Likes (Received): 53462

__________________
We are floating in space...
desertpunk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #1320
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 890

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trilesy View Post
I guess when I was saying that 4-way STOP signs are safer I was opposing those yellow-on-white priority signs (the way they are used in Europe). My main concern with those is that drivers can forget they are on a non-priority road and not yield when they are supposed to. Especially when you drive on an unfamiliar route and miss one of those priority signs (whereas with a STOP sign this problem is avoided).

The actual "Yield" sign would make more sense to me, but even that is questionable.
It's not like they don't normally put up a stop sign too in the countries that use those priority signs.

In this case, the UK and Portugal are more like the US, due to the non-existence or lack of, respectively of those yellow diamond priority signs
DanielFigFoz está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
united states

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium