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Old April 20th, 2008, 08:11 PM   #1
scouseyuppie01
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Liverpool Overhead Railway - 21st Century...

Just an image to spark a debate about how this could be taken forward, some 3D visuals to follow....


Last edited by scouseyuppie01; April 20th, 2008 at 08:17 PM.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 12:28 PM   #2
Bay City
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The Dingle tunnel is best used a for Circle Line and station made into a stop not terminus, as was originally planned. That would benefit the city far more.

An overhead railway would be very different to what was before.

A Circle Line would be better using existing tunnels. An overhead railway can emerge from the Wapping tunnel and serve the arena. It would have to be heavy rail.


above a 1913 map chosen because it shows rails line clearly
  • The proposed loop line is in blue.
  • The blue and pink are existing disused tunnels
  • The blue and green is predominantly cut and cover not tunnelling.
  • The blue only is existing used line.
  • Tunneling only where cut and cover meets existing tunnels.
  • The red is the existing unused 1829 Wapping tunnel - unused in this Circle Line.
  • The new stations are marked - existing stations not marked - total of 12 station on the Circle alone.
  • The spur off the south east of the Circle is not necessary - nice to have to get two districts.Lark Lane and Aigburth on the underground Merseyrail.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 02:10 PM   #3
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Nice idea, but alot of tunnelling.....would it be justified?
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Old April 21st, 2008, 03:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouseyuppie01 View Post
Nice idea, but alot of tunnelling.....would it be justified?
Not a lot of tunnels at all, about 20% of the Circle Line. Much would be cut and cover.

It is well worth doing as most, the expensive bits like tunnelling, is actually in place. So it is cheap.

It is difficult to get the full length of the Wapping tunnel used. An overhead in the docks and using the Wapping would seem the best bet. But as it goes to Edge Hill and nice for it to merge with Merseyrail, probably heavy rail is th best option. Light rail is limited in its use.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 05:02 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bay City View Post
Not a lot of tunnels at all, about 20% of the Circle Line. Much would be cut and cover.

It is well worth doing as most, the expensive bits like tunnelling, is actually in place. So it is cheap.

It is difficult to get the full length of the Wapping tunnel used. An overhead in the docks and using the Wapping would seem the best bet. But as it goes to Edge Hill and nice for it to merge with Merseyrail, probably heavy rail is th best option. Light rail is limited in its use.
Cut and cover is ofcourse a good option, but can you imagine the disruption and protest at something like this, especially in the sefton park area etc. I tend to think in a liverpool-friendly way these days (friendly to the mentality of the active few who protest at anything and everything)

From Dingle there would need to be tunnelling initially. Granted there could then be the emergence of cut and cover, but is the topography in the area adequate for cut and cover?

Does all the route need to be relatively flat to allow for cut and cover? there is a large dip in the topography shortly after Dingle as your route suggests.

The same with aigburth road, and again, there is the issue's arising from Digging up a primary artery into the city.....

just a thought.

I mean i agree we could establish a circle line but dont the outer suburbs need better connections more urgently? wouldnt reinstating the original loop be the key?
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Old April 21st, 2008, 06:42 PM   #6
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Yuppie, When John first suggested this 'circle line' idea, I went through the likely engineering works that would be required to bring it into fruition and also the operating problems. Needless to say, all these issues were dismissed as 'trivial'.

Cut and cover construction was used extensively on the Metropolitan and District Lines in London back in the 1860s and caused massive disruption. Nowadays, however, things would be much worse due to the preponderance of services within the road surface and the high level of traffic that would need to be diverted.

Any transportation system has got to start with a perceived demand. When the LOR was built, that demand was extremely high due to the extensive dock system that it served and the huge amount of traffic on the Dock Road. Despite the development of the docks, that demand is nowadays much reduced and, in any case is partially served by the Northern Line, which is now continuous over the full length of the old LOR.

However, if a monorail system was used, there would be advantages in the docks area in that it could snake between buildings and bridge over dock basins - much as the DLR does in London. I expect though that the main demand would be in the Liverpool Waters development.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 07:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouseyuppie01 View Post
Just an image to spark a debate about how this could be taken forward, some 3D visuals to follow....


This would be fantastic if you could get the monorail from Liverpool all the way to the Magic Kingdom or Epcot, it would only take a couple of days.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 08:14 PM   #8
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It's a good idea to deliver the trains with the graffiti already in place......
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Old April 21st, 2008, 08:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouseyuppie01 View Post
Cut and cover is ofcourse a good option, but can you imagine the disruption and protest at something like this, especially in the sefton park area etc. I tend to think in a liverpool-friendly way these days (friendly to the mentality of the active few who protest at anything and everything)
Something that needs to be done to catapult the city forwards has to be done. A few NIMBYs is not worth talking about.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 08:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
Yuppie, When John first suggested this 'circle line' idea, I went through the likely engineering works that would be required to bring it into fruition and also the operating problems. Needless to say, all these issues were dismissed as 'trivial'.
Which they are. The large bulk of the work has been done, like boring tunnels.

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Cut and cover construction was used extensively on the Metropolitan and District Lines in London back in the 1860s and caused massive disruption. Nowadays, however, things would be much worse due to the preponderance of services within the road surface and the high level of traffic that would need to be diverted.
So let's not build sweet FA then - no buildings, no nothing. Wow! someone might complain so can't have that. The re-birth of a city is at stake!!!

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Any transportation system has got to start with a perceived demand.
The demand is the expansion, regeneration and future investment it will draw in.

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Despite the development of the docks, that demand is nowadays much reduced and, in any case is partially served by the Northern Line, which is now continuous over the full length of the old LOR.
The LOR went to Dingle. The Northern Line doesn't go there
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Old April 21st, 2008, 09:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bay City View Post
Something that needs to be done to catapult the city forwards has to be done. A few NIMBYs is not worth talking about.

lol, well ive been shot down alot before today for thinking that way....; )
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Old April 21st, 2008, 09:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
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lol, well ive been shot down alot before today for thinking that way....; )
SY - John's an extremist.

We're talking about someone who wants to bulldoze Speke.

He wants the outer loop built seemingly irrespective of cost to regenerate the likes of Lodge Lane, but wants to demolish half of Lodge Lane.

He wants / wanted to put EFC's new stadium in Vauxhall and demolish the housing and small business that happens to get in the way.

He wants to demolish houses in West Derby to reintroduce a rail link.

He wants to decimate small businesses in Baltic Triangle and move the ACC there.

NIMBYs might have some rightful concerns where this misanthropic character is concerned.
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 12:32 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Joe the red View Post
SY - John's an extremist.
Thank You.

Quote:
We're talking about someone who wants to bulldoze Speke.
Splendid idea.

Quote:
He wants the outer loop built seemingly irrespective of cost to regenerate the likes of Lodge Lane,
It will be cheap as most is there. What don't you understand about that?

Quote:
but wants to demolish half of Lodge Lane.
It does look like war zone.

Quote:
He wants / wanted to put EFC's new stadium in Vauxhall and demolish the housing and small business that happens to get in the way.
Better than the Loop.

Quote:
He wants to demolish houses in West Derby to reintroduce a rail link.
He does?

Quote:
He wants to decimate small businesses in Baltic Triangle and move the ACC there.
Decimate? Wow? The ACC should be there.

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NIMBYs might have some rightful concerns where this misanthropic character is concerned.
I wish a a few more NIMBYs would stop that stupid stadium being built on a grade 2 listed park!!!
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 02:59 AM   #14
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Are you the same John who was on the radio yesterday saying how bad the trams idea is?
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Old April 22nd, 2008, 08:51 PM   #15
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Are you the same John who argues Scotty Rd stadium is completely unfeasable because of cut and cover (which in that particular case would actually just be covering)???
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Old April 24th, 2008, 10:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Are you the same John who was on the radio yesterday saying how bad the trams idea is?
NO. But he is obviously a very bright John indeed.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 10:54 PM   #17
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Are you the same John who argues Scotty Rd stadium is completely unfeasable because of cut and cover (which in that particular case would actually just be covering)???
Will they let them cover? What is the cost? What about transport to a 75,000 stadium. Mmmmm
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Old April 25th, 2008, 12:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scouseyuppie01 View Post
Just an image to spark a debate about how this could be taken forward, some 3D visuals to follow....

It's a very good looking picture, is the monorail your own render or is it a photomontage taken from an example in some other city. I do like the simplicity and solidness of the concrete there as opposed to the 'excessively sleek' designs I've seen elsewhere, which do not suggest urbanity to me.

I see there are two tracks, so presumably the thing is relatively wide. perhaps similar to the original. I wonder if something like a wooden flooring could be built beneath the two tracks to create the 'umbrella' effect where the line passes through the city centre.

Maybe we should all get together and design a station each. I think they should all be uniquely designed.
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Old April 27th, 2008, 12:34 PM   #19
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People need to get out of the mindset of slavishly following the old LOR route. A new LOR should IMO connect the airport with Crosby 'marina'. Ideally it should be built so that other local trains can use it, say in the rush hour - because of this I'm against a monorail because it rules out this possibility.
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Old January 27th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #20
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Thumbs up


mute! -- although I like the video, I ask why rewrite(?) history ...
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