Retail in Liverpool

[Chris B]

Over the last couple of days I've been observing the retail thread over in the Manchester sub-forum to gauge opinions on what effect (if any) those down the other end of the East Lancs feel Liverpool One will have on their retail scene.

During the discussions it was mentioned that Harvey Nicks in Manchester isn't doing so well. One user mentions that one concession took a mere £38 one day last week - not even enough to cover wages. Now let's be honest, although we have our fair share of WAG's, and we do have some well-off out-lying areas, taken as a whole Liverpool is not the most affluent city. As such, if we were to convince a Harvey Nicks or Selfridges to open here, would they be sustainable?

The problem with these stores is that they trade very much on their name. Many people, myself included, would welcome them, but would we actually use them? Or would we simply want them because of the kudos of having them in the city? I'll admit to actually feeling intimidated when in the Selfridges at the Trafford Centre, but before making a sharp exit, I lurked long enough to see that the prices were well out of my level of affordability. Therefore I certainly wouldn't shop at these stores.

It may be a lot of good publicity to attract these stores, but what about the negative impression given if these stores have to close if they find their isn't a profit to be made in the city? Ultimately, is the city better off pitching itself at mid to higher range stores, unique to us (in the region at least), such as Pull & Bear or American Apparal that should be sustainable, rather than going for out and out higher end stores like Harvey Nicks and Selfridges that may find it harder going, and end up closing?

[guenuk]

Totally agree, I went shopping in town today and the amount of people for example with primark bags is unbelievable, not only have the majority of people not got the money to buy in stores like selfridges anyway but most people are used to buying cheap clothes now, everyone goes out to spot bargains.

I think we have pitched it just right, people went to manchester becos it had far more shops, choice, bigger stores and easier parking, the fact that Manchester has stores like Selfridges has more to do with prestige for them rather than people actually using them....Liverpool One have gone a long way to addressing why people even from Liverpool itself had to shop elsewhere and thats why it will prove to be a massive success.

[Artie Fufkin]

A friend of mine who has a senior position at Barclaycard mentioned one time a third of all their credit transactions at Trafford Center were by clients from the Merseyside area. Harvey Nicks will pull out of Manchester soon that's for sure. My niece transferred from Leeds H.N. to the current Manchester store when she began at Manchester Uni. As long as two years ago alarm bells were ringing, don'tthink Liverpool will ever get a H.N. If Manchester can't sustain one, Liverpool has no chance at all.

[Artie Fufkin]

Double post, sorry guy's

[ramsbrook]

Originally Posted by Chris B

Over the last couple of days I've been observing the retail thread over in the Manchester sub-forum to gauge opinions on what effect (if any) those down the other end of the East Lancs feel Liverpool One will have on their retail scene.

During the discussions it was mentioned that Harvey Nicks in Manchester isn't doing so well. One user mentions that one concession took a mere £38 one day last week - not even enough to cover wages. Now let's be honest, although we have our fair share of WAG's, and we do have some well-off out-lying areas, taken as a whole Liverpool is not the most affluent city. As such, if we were to convince a Harvey Nicks or Selfridges to open here, would they be sustainable?

The problem with these stores is that they trade very much on their name. Many people, myself included, would welcome them, but would we actually use them? Or would we simply want them because of the kudos of having them in the city? I'll admit to actually feeling intimidated when in the Selfridges at the Trafford Centre, but before making a sharp exit, I lurked long enough to see that the prices were well out of my level of affordability. Therefore I certainly wouldn't shop at these stores.

It may be a lot of good publicity to attract these stores, but what about the negative impression given if these stores have to close if they find their isn't a profit to be made in the city? Ultimately, is the city better off pitching itself at mid to higher range stores, unique to us (in the region at least), such as Pull & Bear or American Apparal that should be sustainable, rather than going for out and out higher end stores like Harvey Nicks and Selfridges that may find it harder going, and end up closing?

Chris - Good point re Harvey Nicks - as I understand it Selfridges dont do too well outside London either. Ive re- posted my comments below I made in Liverpool One thread as probably best sit here as discussing broader retail in Liverpool. Id mentioned Harvey Nicks for Met Quarter but now reading your comments dont think its such a good idea! Id rather have a John Lewis than any other dept store any day - cant beat it for value and service but can be a bit stuffy at times. A much bigger threat to Liverpool shops would be a John Lewis in Man City Centre..which has also been rumoured in the Manc threads ...but hopefully is just wishful thinking! Do you think Liverpool should go instead for House of Fraser maybe? Not sure it has anything different to offer though. Comments from Liverpool One thread:

Church St / Lord St - is going to still pull them in - its got some big hitters - (drum roll) - worlds biggest Top Shop (ok outside London!), worlds biggest Primark, soon-to-be one of Worlds top 10 Marks and Sparks, one of worlds top-5 biggest Next Stores. The link through the old HMV (does anyone know why its changed from Church Yard to Keys Court?) to the second phase of Liverpool One will be fantastic too...seamlessly from old to new. Had Liverpool One been a mall - the contrast from old to new would have meant all these connections were lost and the differences stark. Recent news about the old Gap store being let, old Zara store becoming Ark, the old WhS store becoming River Island and the current River Island becoming yet more H&M space as they expand their store(another Top 10 worlds biggest Im sure?!) means theres lots of stores being spruced up/expaning and very very few unlet buildings. Lets hope the H Samuel building gets a radical make over by a future new tennant when it vacates it to move into Liverpool One...the same could be said for the old Gap store when HSBC takes it on. Interesting to see Barratts have kept their Church St store whilst opening in Liverpool One... as have H&M ..wonder if Clinton cards will do the same?


St Johns / Clayton Square- weve all heard about the £100m revamp for St Johns and refurb for Clayton Sq and boy does it need it. St Johns serves a different market segment and can see the new mall being a success. Remember Land Securities regularly call it one of their most successful trading units. I think Clayton Sq is more of a problem for them as not sure exactly what its trying to be - its far to cluttered and a million miles from the the day it opened - I remember spacious areas, glass bridges - its now just a cluttered cramped mess. On a positive front, whilst Monsoon and Accessorize have moved to Liverpool One and closed their branches here, Jane Norman, Body Shop, La Senza, Principles and Oasis have all kept open their Clayton Sq branch as well as opening in Liverpool One. Zavvi also are keeping their Clayton Sq store. There is talk of expansion of Boots into Clayton Sq - personally I oppose this - Boots could easily expand into the Clayton Sq shopping centre instead - theres a huge swathe of space on the side of the mall upstairs they could take - particularly as George is closing too. I dont want to see more access routes in the city blocked up.

Williamson SQ - looks fantastic after its revamp last year. Only problem is those awful buildings behind M&S - but its pretty certain they are going as M&S expand their shop. I would imagine New Look will close on the other side (like the LFC shop) but as that whole block is to be redeveloped as St Johns Market stall area next year I dont think it will be a problem

Met Quarter - Like Tom I went and had a look today - and agree it was its usual moderately busy self.. I worry a little for this place as it always does seem quiet - although I think its great - there is only one unlet store suggesting its doing well? Does anyone have inside info? I think the long term future of Flannels here is very questionable once they open in Peters Arcade but I actually think a better anchor in here would increase traffic and make the whole place successful ...is Flannels big enough to become a future Harvey Nicks? I hope Met extend opening hours at end of Sept when phase 2 of Liverpool One opens and this might help run into a fantastic Christmas trading period.

Bold St - unique in its quirkyness and independents - Im sure it will not only survive but prosper. Love it. Even if Central Village doesnt happen - this area I think will do fine.

Lord St / Cavern Walks - Lord St looks scruffy opposite BhS and few unlet units but the increase in traffic created by Debenhams will mean its bound to benefit. BhS Trafford Centre just undergoing refurb - Im sure Liverpool store will too very shortly - and again Liverpool Bhs branch is one of their flagship stores. Cavern Walks should benefit from increased traffic - I know it was suggested on here to revamp the entrance from Lord St - think thats a great suggestion.

Hanover St - Grosvenor have been very quiet on this front - not a single store has been named for this location other than Bath Store and BBC. Although not official we know Tesco is going in as big anchor on 3 floors below the new car park here and looking at the quality of the buildings here I think this will be a successful area. Be interesting what home type stores Grosvenor can attract given Barton Square got in there first. I suppose Tesco will keep their Clayton Sq branch..but if not be a good opportunity for TK Maxx to relocate there.

Lewis's - kinda a little worried for them - especially given how close to closure they were last year - I think Debenhams is so fantastic that their opening could sadly see Lewis's off before their revamp/hotel/leisure development...but who knows.

In fact T K Maxx gives you a great case study - Im 100% certain (no insider info just my view!) they will relocate in the next year in the city centre and create a flagship store. The opportunities Liverpool has to offer are now endless - an achor 2 storey store in revamped St Johns? Or how about in a reconfigured Clayton Sq? Or on Lord St - taking out a few of the smaller units? Or what about into the now empty Sports World store on Paradise St? What about Manestys Lane - space for a few choice anchor units here? Or Hanover St (despite the home label given to this area)? Previously Liverpool had no options for retailers - amazing how things have changed so recently.

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by ramsbrook

Do you think Liverpool should go instead for House of Fraser maybe? Not sure it has anything different to offer though.

I've got to be honest I'm not sure of House of Fraser's offer. However when the third anchor store for Liverpool One was still up for grabs, I felt they could be a possibility. However given the third anchor store unit was split, and nothing has been mentioned, I think it's farily safe to say they passed on Liverpool.

Originally Posted by ramsbrook

There is talk of expansion of Boots into Clayton Sq - personally I oppose this - Boots could easily expand into the Clayton Sq shopping centre instead - theres a huge swathe of space on the side of the mall upstairs they could take - particularly as George is closing too. I dont want to see more access routes in the city blocked up.

This scheme secured planning permission last year. While you are correct there will be more space upstairs with the closure of George, I don't think Boots are looking to expand the store. It's more a case of wanting to have the whole store on one level. I suppose if it's any consellation the closed George store, the vacated upstairs section of Boots, and the upper floor of the new extension should provide a fairly sizable unit if knocked into one, so perhaps we may see a big store here? (Although given the un-navigable clutter inside the centre I suggest they work on that first before encouraging more people into the centre).

Originally Posted by ramsbrook

BhS Trafford Centre just undergoing refurb - Im sure Liverpool store will too very shortly - and again Liverpool Bhs branch is one of their flagship stores.

I agree. With most of the other department stores in the city either brand new or expecting re-furbishment, BHS needs to consider re-furbishing their store too.

Originally Posted by ramsbrook

Hanover St - Grosvenor have been very quiet on this front - not a single store has been named for this location other than Bath Store and BBC. Although not official we know Tesco is going in as big anchor on 3 floors below the new car park here and looking at the quality of the buildings here I think this will be a successful area. Be interesting what home type stores Grosvenor can attract given Barton Square got in there first. I suppose Tesco will keep their Clayton Sq branch..but if not be a good opportunity for TK Maxx to relocate there.

Hanover Street is going to be the interesting one. Grosvenor have said they don't want to sign up anyone, and prefer to wait until they can secure the names they want. That's good. But with Barton Square hoovering up many names in homewares, and the bottom dropping out of the homewares market in general, I wonder how many empty units along Hanover Street they would deem acceptable, and how long they are prepared to wait.

Originally Posted by ramsbrook

Lewis's - kinda a little worried for them - especially given how close to closure they were last year - I think Debenhams is so fantastic that their opening could sadly see Lewis's off before their revamp/hotel/leisure development...but who knows.

I feel Lewis's time is nearly up to be honest. They've been in decline for years by virtue of being off the well beaten retail track. Liverpool One may well be what sees them off entirely, but realistically all Liverpool One will be doing is speeding up the inevitable.

Originally Posted by ramsbrook

The opportunities Liverpool has to offer are now endless - an achor 2 storey store in revamped St Johns? Or how about in a reconfigured Clayton Sq? Or on Lord St - taking out a few of the smaller units? Or what about into the now empty Sports World store on Paradise St? What about Manestys Lane - space for a few choice anchor units here? Or Hanover St (despite the home label given to this area)? Previously Liverpool had no options for retailers - amazing how things have changed so recently.

I agree that there are now so many possibilities, that I wouldn't be suprised if we see many more examples of stores swapping around to take advantage of better premises for quite some time to come.

[T0M]

Good points Rams and Chris - agree with most of your observations/predicitions.

I read an article recently from a few independant retailers on Bold Street saying that they're looking to form some sort of co-operative of shops owners to try and make a concerted and united effort to really give the street that unique identity it needs to really thrive. I think the location of FACT and the redevelopment of Rope Walks plus the constant flow of students down Hardman street will ensure that Bold Street continues to do well, and if Central Village materialises then it will positively thrive.

I agree with Chris re. Lewis's. That store has had it's day, it narrowly survived a natural death last year, and has been on life support ever since. It's living off it's past glory and currently offers nothing to the city. The proposed redevelopment whcih will include a hotel and restaurants can't happen soon enough in my opinion.

The city will always need St John's but the redevelopment is long overdue. Planning decision in 9 days (!) and it looks pretty certain. I've seen the 3D model of the redevelopment and it's going to be excellent. The plans for the new market with an emphasis on food and quality (ie. a decent fish market, delhi etc) will add a much needed niche to the city centre.

Clayton Square will only get a paint job, and I think it'll survive only on the quality of its tenants. Boots and Zavvi are good anchors, but it could do with at least one more to really ensure its long term survival.

I'm not sure what's going on in the short term, but in the long term Hannover Street will be a great success. It's a very natural artery through the city and will flow very well into L1 and the Albert Dock. I was a bit dissapointed to see that the new Zara Home was located on South John Street as this is exactly the sort of store they should be locating on Hannover Street. I'm still holding out for a return of Habitat to the city, and hopefully the increased numbers of shoppers in the city centre will pursuade them to change their mind. They must get a large proportion of customers from Liverpool in both their Manchester and Chester stores, and if those customers stop shopping their then the market will force them to move. I'm still ambiguous about Tesco, but we'll see how it pans out.

All in all things are looking good for the city centre, in fact, better than at any point since WWII!

[Chris B]

One more thought about Lewis's. I know this will be seen as sacrilege by some, but for me, if the owners still feel Lewis's could be a sustainable business, which is only being hindered by it's location, then the obvious solution to that is to move.

Take the store back into the centre of the retail area. The Lewis's building is massive, but as far as I am aware, most of it isn't even used as trading space/backroom areas. As such, they wouldn't need premises anywhere near as big as the building they are currently in. To be honest, Lewis's for me would be a better fit for the old John Lewis building than Rapid, and their future would probably be secured. Although compared to John Lewis and Debenhams, Lewis's offer could do with fleshing out a bit, I firmly believe that their problems are rooted in location more than anything else. As such, moving the store may represent the end of a lot of history (although leaving it where it is and letting it close would do the same), I think moving the store is the only way it could be preserved.

Whatever you think of the store, it is intrinsically linked to the city, and as such I think there would be support for moving the store away from it's home, rather than seeing it go belly up altogether.

[Tom Hughes]

I think the demise of Lewis' could really unbalance this part of town, in the same way the loss of Blacklers affected that whole block and even Lime Street IMO. This is an inner gateway to the city and it's collapse could cause further decay when we want expansion not shift. This can be addressed by improving the offer there and around this site and by a better strategy for people movement to take in this location and peripheral sites beyond (ie. University/cathedrals/Hope Street/London Rd etc). How many North-enders don't shop at Lewis' simply due to their buses going to Queens Sqr, or because it feels ever so slightly uphill from Church street even......? It's essential that Renshaw street doesn't become a simple access road, or could Rapid complete their plan for road domination.

[Toadboy]

With Rapid relocating to George Henry Lees, Ballymore have a lot to do to ensure that Renshaw Street and their Lewis's/Central Station plans bear fruit and more importantly make sure that part of town doesn't become London Road mkII.

[T0M]

Originally Posted by Tom Hughes

I think the demise of Lewis' could really unbalance this part of town, in the same way the loss of Blacklers affected that whole block and even Lime Street IMO. This is an inner gateway to the city and it's collapse could cause further decay when we want expansion not shift. This can be addressed by improving the offer there and around this site and by a better strategy for people movement to take in this location and peripheral sites beyond (ie. University/cathedrals/Hope Street/London Rd etc). How many North-enders don't shop at Lewis' simply due to their buses going to Queens Sqr, or because it feels ever so slightly uphill from Church street even......? It's essential that Renshaw street doesn't become a simple access road, or could Rapid complete their plan for road domination.

I agree with you regarding the consequences of simply loosing that site... but no one is suggesting that Lewis's move out and the building goes to pot. We're suggesting that the building is put to much better and more relevent and dynamic use, becoming a multi-purpose lesiure, retail and entertainment venue, which would perfectly suit a revived Renshaw Street. The current occupation of the building by Lewis's is preventing such a rennovation and is part of the existing problem.

[buggedboy]

Also, Lewis's forms part of a much bigger project for the area, namely Central Village. When finished this area will act as a book-end "anchor project" for the entire centre, same way as John Lewis and Debenhams anchor either end of Liverpool One.

It'll be reet.

[buggedboy]

.....

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by buggedboy

Also, Lewis's forms part of a much bigger project for the area, namely Central Village. When finished this area will act as a book-end "anchor project" for the entire centre, same way as John Lewis and Debenhams anchor either end of Liverpool One.

It'll be reet.

I can see that as a logical way to make it work. However, usually wary of placing one bookend in postion at a time....... arn't the books at the other end more liable to just fall off the shelf. Apologies for overdoing your analogy!

[Babaloo]

I think the developers behind 'Central Village' really need to think about how they position their development. The bottom end of the market is aptly covered by the precinct, T. J Hughes and Primark. The 'middle market' is covered by Church Street and L1, and the designer market is adequately covered by Cavern Walks and the Met Quarter. Bold Street is going for the independents. What will Central Village be offering that will tempt people away from the aforementioned places? Pizza Hut and Starbucks reflected in a 10cm deep 'canal'-cum-water-feature isn't really doing it for me at the moment. I don't need a boutique hotel and I can live without another cinema that shows Hollywood pap.

[Chris B]

From LDP Business -

Bold Street’s future may lie with BID

Jun 6 2008 by Alex Turner, Liverpool Daily Post

BOLD Street traders are being asked to buy in to being part of Liverpool’s Business Improvement District at a meeting next week.

They will meet key BID operational staff on Monday evening who want to gauge the level of interest in expanding the Liverpool City Central BID to include the street.

The organisation is opening talks with shopkeepers and business owners and wants to put its case forward for the benefits being part of the BID can bring.

The Liverpool City Central BID team is keen to incorporate the city’s most independent street into its area.

Chief executive Rita Waters said: “We are keen to unite Bold Street and the existing BID area as it is one of the city centre’s best assets.

“If they came on board, they would have access to our economies of scale and help the street give its best possible offer to shoppers.

“It is a unique part of Liverpool’s retail landscape and the BID could assist in promoting this in the long run.”

More here - http://www.ldpbusiness.co.uk/liverpo...6026-21032501/

Sounds like a good idea. The independent retailers in Bold Street need some kind of umbrella organisation to speak for them with a much louder voice than they could achieve individually. Getting involved with an established, experienced group like BID could be a good way of achieving that.

[Babaloo]

BID has been after Bold Street's cherry for some time now and they have always been spurned. I wonder what makes them think that things have changed.

[Chris B]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

I wonder what makes them think that things have changed.

Two words -

Liverpool One

I wonder why the Bold Street traders carry on spurning them? Seems to me it's a case of speculate to accumulate. Pay a little to BID, and reap the rewards when you get more custom because of the higher profile you will gain through BID's work.

[flange]

... while boutiques descend on Cavern Walks

06.06.08

Liverpool’s Cavern Walks shopping centre has this week signed up two designer boutiques.

The Corsetorium, a lingerie specialist (right), and Amethyst, a clothing boutique, have signed up at the Warner Estate Holdings-managed centre.

The Corsetorium has taken a 713 sq ft unit in Cavern Walks on a two-year lease at £20,000 a year.

Amethyst has taken a 647 sq ft unit on a two-year lease at £21,840 a year.

The two stores bring brand names such as Antik Batik and Kiss Me Deadly to a scheme that is popular with footballers wives and the Liverpool celebrity set thanks to retailers such as Vivienne Westwood, Cricket and Drome.

Capital Retail is the agent on the scheme.

http://www.propertyweek.com/story.as...rycode=3115157

[Chris B]

Anyway know which unit this relates to?

From the Planning Explorer -

Application Number - 08F/1516
Site Address - 58 Church Street, Liverpool, L1 3AY
Applicant - British Land In Town Retail Ltd
Proposal - To enlarge windows at first floor level

Application Number - 08A/1517
Site Address - 58 Church Street, Liverpool, L1 3AY
Applicant - British Land In Town Retail Ltd
Proposal - To display 1 no. illuminated projecting 'blade' sign at first floor

http://www.britishland.com/in_town_retail.htm

British Land In Town Retail are some kind of landlord, but I wonder who the tenants are?