Johannesburg Disintegration

[speedtouch]

After coming across this blog I was shocked to see the level of disintegration in downtown Johannesburg after only 13 years of ANC rule.
If this kind of thing is happening across the country I fear for South Africa. Here are some pictures :
























More pictures here : http://deathofjohannesburg.blogspot.com/


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[Pule]

Check as to when last that website was updated, that's not tru reflection of our city. Please visit our Gallery here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...481221&page=30

and also visit my Johannesblog withthe link on my signature

[Pule]

Yes, there are some places which are bad but the city is transforming big time. The buildings I'm posting here used to be as bad as the ones you have posted but now things are changing.

[Pule]

Johannesburg today, yes there are some places that needs attention.

[joburg]

a) The blog you found was last updated in 2006.

b) The blog you found is a white supremacist orgy. They're hardly going to be partial when criticising ANC rule.

c) The pictures you found did exist, but as Pule has shown you, things have improved dramatically.

d) The pictures depicted are the result of poverty, and not a systemic campaign by the ANC to make our cities deplorable. Poverty has always been a factor of SA - it was just conveniently shifted to the edges of society where we couldn't see it. Projects such as AFHCO provide for affordable housing to the poor, and indicate how the ANC is actually trying to eradicate poverty and not just ignore it.

e) I think it's best to consider both sides of the story before believing the racist rubbish that that blog produces...

[annman]

The pictures you posted Speedtouch is very very old news. Cape Town's CBD and environs has seen over R30billion (GBP3billion) in recent years, Johannesburg's CBD has already turned the corner with billions being pumped into Ghandi Square, Constitution Hill, Newtown Cultural Precinct, the Ellis Park district and Braamfontein. Now even Hillbrow (what was the worst part) is undergoing a makeover. Durban is investing billions in their harbour, CBD and especially their new multi-billion Point District... sorry, this thread holds no water, it may have been half true in the early 2000's.

[Jakes1]

The pictures are old, the website is never updated. Yes, Johannesburg did go through a rough patch (extremely rough). There was a time where you could not walk out of the 5star Carlton Hotel without being mugged. Then the exodus began: The Carlton Hotel closed. The Southern Sun complex (once 5star) closed its doors - it was the largest hotel complex in the southern hemisphere. Statues were stolen - the copper sold on the black market. The Stock Exchange left the CBD for the northern suburbs. Attorneys left, CAs left. Restaurants closed down. Buildings were hi-jacked by syndicates, and squatters moved in.

The fall from grace was spectacular. But as the pictures show - the recent efforts are bearing fruit. investment is increasing. Crime fell - the CBD is now safe to walk.

some pics from the blog, and the reality today.

The Drill Hall, Joubert Park - according to the blog


This is how it looks today

[Jakes1]

La Rose in Hillbrow, according to the blog

Today


The Turbine Hall, once a mess, today Anglo Ashanti's head office


The Mapungubwe Hotel (4 star). First hotel to move back to the CBD. 90% occupancy since opening.

[Jakes1]

Lunch in Newtown


11 Diagonal Street being refurbished for major bank to move in - after Anglo moved down the road into their newly refurbished office



go and check out the johannesburg thread. Photos are taken by the forumers, walking the streets of the CBD. It will give you a much more realistic view of the city.

[Jakes1]

This is now the site of the corner cafe - just a block down from the four star mapungubwe hotel. So this pic is also OLD.

[Svartmetall]

Originally Posted by Jakes1

go and check out the johannesburg thread. Photos are taken by the forumers, walking the streets of the CBD. It will give you a much more realistic view of the city.

As an impartial observer I'll still contest that the Jo'berg forumers will always seek out the best photos of the city possible. When you look at shots taken of Auckland you'd think that it is the best city ever with absolutely no grit or grime at all! Of course this isn't so, but who really wants to showcase the "real" cities? Very few new world countries that's for sure.

[Jakes1]

you will see our forum dealing with all aspects of the city. Remember, that even in taking photos, one struggles to remain objective. Johannesburg CBD is not perfect - that much is true. But it is improving, and this is the pictures that we wish to showcase. And then, you realise it is very easy and comfortable for an internet troll such as the real realist (the blog creator) to take only pictures of squalor and sell this off as the reality of the New South Africa. Look through our pictures of johannesburg. We have hillbrow in there, with its crime and grime. The fact is: we don't want to make people think johannesburg is perfect(it is far from it). But a lot is done on a daily basis - it is these successes that we want to highlight and learn from.

I hope I give you a bit more clarity on our intentions. The intentions of the blog creator is clear. He wants to sell johannesburg as a dump with pics that are outdated - claiming this to be the current situation.

[Taller, Better]

Selective photos can be very misleading, and virtually any major city could be made to look bad with them.

[annman]

I wonder if they even went to the SA Cities thread right under this Cityscapes subforum... Go have a look if any of you think SA cities are dumps: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=602685
They are elements of Africa, Europe, USA and the East... they have the benefits off all, but also the issues accompanying all of them. But SA cities are far from being "dumps", I would argue many American cities are worse (Orlando, Atlanta, Houston - many of the newer ones)... ill planned, terrible aesthetics, uncontrolled sprawl and rampant decentralisation with pockets of horrible slums and crime... been there, so can make a fair comparison.

[philadweller]

"There was a time where you could not walk out of the 5star Carlton Hotel without being mugged."

That is atrocious. People suck!

[philadweller]

"Orlando, Atlanta, Houston" They are definite sunbelt sprawlfests. However out of the 3 Atlanta at least has a subway and has a very walkable Midtown. Houston has a light rail now. It still has a pathetic downton considering its population.

The worst cities in the US for planning and zoning are Phoenix and Las Vagas.

All SA cities are very dangerous for strolling around in a non-chalant fashion. No US cities are dangerous to the degree of SA cities. People here do not carry machetes or have hyenas as pets. I would feel safer walking around in downtown Detroit than downtown Cape Town.

[annman]

Been to Cape Town? I've been to Detroit... felt about the same as I do in Cape Town. Been to Miami, also about the same crime rate. Johannesburg is still quite dangerous, but Cape Town, especially the downtown area, very heavily pedestrianised and pretty safe at night. It's a major nightlife area (Long Street, in downtown).

PS... the criminals in Jo'burg's bad areas have handguns, not Machetes... we have very "technologically advanced" thugs there

[speedtouch]

Thankyou for your replies everyone and the different views of Johannesburg. I realise a city can be made to look good or bad depending on the areas photographed and I'd be interested to know how much of Johannesburg is very run down and how much is Ok. Also is it very dangerous or just a bit dangerous. I've heard it is very dangerous and that the suburbs are heavily protected.

Also, how is South Africa as a whole. Is it getting better or are things deteriorating. I have heard there are problems with constant power cuts and a generally deteriorating situation. Is this true or not ? I hope South Africa does well in the future but from afar the impression seems to be that there are serious problems.

[annman]

Power: Yes, huge headache... not seeming to have much of an effect on the continuous office building boom in the cities, but the power situation is a crisis, but a manageable one at that, just as long as ESKOM's (our power utility) R300billion Build Program keeps continuing apace.

Danger: Yes, Johannesburg's suburbs, and for that matter some of Pretoria, Durban, and even some Cape Town suburbs have unacceptable rates of crime. Jo'burg's suburbs have notoriously high walls, electric gates, etc. Durban, somewhat, but less so... and Cape Town homes are still comparatively unguarded in many parts.

South African cities have become much safer from the inside out actually, with Cape Town's CBD (downtown) being probably the safest, and also has a very low crime rate. Inner-city suburbs of Cape Town are the safest, as criminals flee due to CID (city improvement district) efforts. Investment in new residential projects, offices and retail is high in most South African urban areas. Johannesburg, Durban and Pretoria's CBD's are making a huge come-back.

So, it's a mixed bag, but by no means are SA cities in a decline, I think we past that point about 4 years ago, in Cape Town in 1998. Crime is an issue, especially in Gauteng (JHB and PTA). But I, usually when visiting friends there and frequenting better areas, malls, restaurants, whatever... do not feel any constant threat. Cape Town, never really feel threatened at all.

Obviously, if you run hell of leather into the first slum or dark alley you see, like in any world city, you may be in trouble

[joburg]

I agree with the people who have pointed out how subjectively people can paint their own city. Joburg forumers (including myself) are of course as guilty of that as anyone else.

I think the point to made in this thread, however, is that the photos posted above are not from a credible source at all, yet they tend to be viewed by people as indicative of Joburg.

So to answer your question... As objectively as I can...

Originally Posted by speedtouch

Is it getting better or are things deteriorating. I have heard there are problems with constant power cuts and a generally deteriorating situation. Is this true or not ?

Joburg is a very complex city with many extremes - to paint it as perfect would be a misnomer, but to paint it as a city in constant flux would be correct. There are bad elements (like the power cuts that anger South Africans ever so much, as well as the crime, both of which are still at unacceptable levels), but there ARE also good elements.

What we hate about the Death of Joburg blog is that paints Joburg as a city that is dead and where there is no hope - and it is this that cannot be further from the truth.