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Old April 24th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #1
Cristov„o471
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Canberra, 2008 Olympic Torch relay (protests)

All these images were taken by me today, but they are poor quality because I had to Resize them.

Anyways, today was pretty crazy, around 20,000+ pro-china people were bussed into Canberra, The news says that the pro-china supporters outnumbered to tibetan supporters 2 to 1, but it felt like 30 to 1, The Chanting in the main streets were so loud, there were thousands of chinese flags everywhere. Anyway, the Chinese supporters were a bit over the top, I witnessed quite a few arguments, one woman was screaming something and this strange Chinese man was crying for no reason.

In commonwealth park, some people were holding up Tibetan flags but 50 chinese people pounced on them and hid them with the huge 5 metre flags, I did not understand the point of that.

Atleast the Tibetan supporters were peacefull.
I actually recorded video on my camera, so I will eventually post that up.

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Old April 24th, 2008, 01:57 PM   #2
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I was very dissapointed with the extent of the Chinese nationalism shown -- especially the sporadic violent outbursts against Tibetan protesters -- granted they were probably not perfect either.



When will people see past their bias and realise the criticism is not aimed at Chinese people but at their Government. Government / People = two very different things. Let's not forget 1989.

This about the human rights issues in Tibet. It's not an attack against the Chiense people personally. If they choose to take it personally it's their problem --- deal with it... like everyone does when their respective Government's come under fire. China is/never will be exempt from this.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 02:17 PM   #3
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Everyone has the right to protest. The fact that there are more pro-China activists out there reflect reality. The international community is very clear in asserting the fact that Tibet is a part of China. Nevertheless, if the Tibetan activists want a platform to protest, so should the other side.

Also, I don't buy the excuse that protests against China and the Chinese government are different. To the ordinary Chinese, an attack on our national sovereignty is not directed only at the government in Beijing, but at all Chinese people who value our national integrity.

In fact, this huge reaction comes after unpeaceful protests and interruptions to the torch relay abroad, which prompted a lot of anger that the Olympics are being hijacked by special interest groups rather than to promote international understanding and sportsmanship.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 02:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post

Also, I don't buy the excuse that protests against China and the Chinese government are different. To the ordinary Chinese, an attack on our national sovereignty is not directed only at the government in Beijing, but at all Chinese people who value our national integrity.
I understand for alot of Chinese peopel this is a difficult thing to separate -- but its becoming increasingly frustrating from the perspective of many people getting involved in the issue - because there is an alarming amount of pig-headedness from nationalists -- and blatant refusal to accept the other sides right to protest. It is speculated the Chinese embassy had a role in drumming up the support for students from Sydney and Melbourne to head to Canberra to out number the Tibetans. There was a last minute mass of buses up there last night.

I truely find the situation very distressing. I love China, it's people, and it's culture, and after visiting Beijing last year I cannot help but feel in years to come, after the evitable fall of the CCP, or watering down of it, people will see these events and the Beijing Olympics in a different light.

Beijing 2008 is a politcal Olympics. There is no denying that. It's epic and will be remembered in a similar way to Berlin 1936 and Moscow 1980.

I wish China and the Chinese all the best. And in saying that I refer to human rights in China, be it Tibetan or ethnic Chinese.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 03:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Alphaville View Post
I understand for alot of Chinese peopel this is a difficult thing to separate -- but its becoming increasingly frustrating from the perspective of many people getting involved in the issue - because there is an alarming amount of pig-headedness from nationalists -- and blatant refusal to accept the other sides right to protest. It is speculated the Chinese embassy had a role in drumming up the support for students from Sydney and Melbourne to head to Canberra to out number the Tibetans. There was a last minute mass of buses up there last night.

I truely find the situation very distressing. I love China, it's people, and it's culture, and after visiting Beijing last year I cannot help but feel in years to come, after the evitable fall of the CCP, or watering down of it, people will see these events and the Beijing Olympics in a different light.

Beijing 2008 is a politcal Olympics. There is no denying that. It's epic and will be remembered in a similar way to Berlin 1936 and Moscow 1980.

I wish China and the Chinese all the best. And in saying that I refer to human rights in China, be it Tibetan or ethnic Chinese.
I don't think the nationalist movement is preventing Tibetans from protesting. The fact is, the Tibetans have done far more protesting than the nationalists have, and it is time for the other side of the story to voice their opinions. Naturally, since there are so many of them, their voice will certainly be louder.

There is also great frustration that special interest groups such as the Tibetans are hijacking the Olympic Games to further their cause. Politics and sports are not supposed to mix, and trying to put out the Olympic flame is quite an insulting slap at the Olympic movement, in my opinion. Hence, many Chinese have felt the need to voice our support of our homeland and welcome to world to see a great Olympics in Beijing. Beijing 2008 was never intended to be a political games. It was a symbolic event to mark China's entry into the modern world as a powerful nation. It's not like a North Korean-style showcase. Chinese people around the world are proud to pull off such a feat and make such an entrance to the international arena.

In fact, the opinion on the ground in China is much more positive towards the Communists than the West. People are living far better lives today and the country is getting very wealthy, worthy to be a powerful force in the world. That aspect seems to be ignored by the Western media, which tends to cast a bad light on what doesn't resemble them. That's the Western ignorance these nationalists are trying to counter as the global axis of power shifts.

And I doubt the protests would be anywhere near this severity had the Games been held somewhere in the West. I don't think the anti-Iraq contingent would rain on London 2012 like what the Tibetans are doing.
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Old April 24th, 2008, 07:30 PM   #6
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I'm a Chinese student currently studying in Sydney. The truth is, hosting the Olympics is a dream-come-true and a source of pride for many Chinese people across the globe. I am not suprised that many Chinese take it as an insult to their person and their home country when some protesters start doing everything they could to interrupt the Olympic torch relay. The suggestion that interrupting the torch relay is an act purely against the Chinese governent simply does not make any sense.

While I certainly agree the Chinese government is far from perfect, I do not think the Chinese government deserves the huge amount of criticism that is currently being aimed at it by many foreigners who barely know China and Tibet.

And what is the criticism all about? Some Australians accuse the CCP for its ongoing occupation of Tibet. They shout "Free Tibet" and "Shame on China" slogans tirelessly on TV. The media portray how the evil CCP rolled their tanks into Tibet and killed Tibetans who fought for independance, how the same brutal CCP prohibited Tibetans worshipping the Dalai Lama and flooded Tibet with foreign Han Chinese with an unspeakable yet obvious goal. These people believe the greedy Communist Chinese invaded Tibet in the early 50's and prior to that, Tibet had always been a sacred, innocent and peaceful sovereign nation. The Chinese Communists, they are told, are a bunch of thugs who are only interested in power and control with no consideration of people's well being. But are these information true? well, I'd say some are, at least the Communists did roll their tanks into Tibet on a number of occations to crackdown on dissents. But all those above hardly represent the whole story.

The problem with the Australian media(and the Western Media in general) is that they don't tell you the whole story. They intentionlly or ignorantly report only one side of the story and tell people that's it, that's the truth, thats how tragic the story is. In this respect, they are not dissimilar to those CCP propoganda.

The Australian media won't tell people that Tibet had been effectively under Chinese control before the American Declaration of Independance in 1776, and even before Captain Cook first sailed his fleet along the Australian east coast in 1770 and spotted the land which we come to call New South Wales today. It was not until the early 1900's when China briefly lost control over the Tibetan region due to civil war and invasion by Western powers. What the CCP did in the 50's was simply to reassert Chinese control over Tibet, which can be traced back hundreds of years.

Those Australians who want Han Chinese out of Tibet or an end to the what they call ongoing occupation of Tibet should also fight for a dissolution of the Commonwealth and stop their ongoing occupation of Abboriginal people's land, otherwise it is hypocritical of them to make those kinds of requests.

People also criticise China on the ground of human rights violations in Tibet. Some go as far as to claim that Tibetans live their lives under constant Communist oppression. But just exactly what kind of right or oppression are they referring to? In China, Tibetans are generally indifferent to Hans in terms of the rights they enjoy in society. Hans get sent to jail too if they openly criticise the government. If the rights those critics are referrng to are to seek independance or spread their Tibetan sovereignty ideas or to whoship the Dalai Lama who seeks "greater autonomy" from China, then sorry, this is simply not possible. China simply cannot afford this kind of so called human right to its citizens. China is still underdeveloped and this huge nation of more than 56 ethnic groups would simply shatter and fall apart if the law allows people to freely seek independance or "greater autonomy".
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Old April 25th, 2008, 06:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie-rolls View Post
The problem with the Australian media(and the Western Media in general) is that they don't tell you the whole story. They intentionlly or ignorantly report only one side of the story and tell people that's it, that's the truth, thats how tragic the story is. In this respect, they are not dissimilar to those CCP propoganda.
ha, what a lie.

The thing is we are a democratic country, so there is so no censorship of media, and the internet is there for anyone who wants in depth information on anything.

When you say western media doesn't tell you the whole story? What opposed to the Chinese government, lol. I hear they censored all footage of the protests from the torch relay. Other censored things include the 1989 protests at tianamen square, websites about falun gong, youtube, wikipedia, the amnesty international website, the human rights watch website.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 06:30 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by cookie-rolls View Post
I'm a Chinese student currently studying in Sydney. The truth is, hosting the Olympics is a dream-come-true and a source of pride for many Chinese people across the globe. I am not suprised that many Chinese take it as an insult to their person and their home country when some protesters start doing everything they could to interrupt the Olympic torch relay. The suggestion that interrupting the torch relay is an act purely against the Chinese governent simply does not make any sense.
I don't support anyone who tries to disrupt the relay, but it seems like there was definitely some aspect of hooliganism, where pro-China protesters would try to disrupt Tibetan protesters. Calling the opposing protesters liars does nothing to help the situation. It's never good to let too many emotions get in the way of a rational debate, and the international forums here are the best example of that (plus when outsiders come to local forums and start ruining discussions as well).

Mobbing the opposing protesters also does nothing to support your cause, or improve your image in the eyes of the rest of Australia, or the world. It's definitely only the minority, but you have to remember that for everything, it's the vocal, misbehaving minority that gets the press coverage. Especially if the embassy is going to pay for people to travel to Canberra, most likely as a PR exercise (a coach/train ticket to Canberra doesn't cost very much) then it's important to make sure everyone is well-behaved.

Freedom of speech exists in Australia not to protect people who have nice things to say, but to protect people's rights to dissent.


My parents grew up in Communist China and Vietnam respectively, my family's picture of their home countries are not all that positive at all.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 08:19 AM   #9
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I think it's a matter of optics.

The fact is, your average Chinese citizen is rightly proud that they can host the Olympics, Beijing citizens probably the most so. At the same time, the average Chinese citizen also has very little power to change government policy, and at the same time, the average Chinese citizen is also extremely far removed from Tibet.

I think the idea of international protests against substandard treatment of natives for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics here in Canada would be unthinkable, along with the unthinkable act of international protests against England's continuing occupation of Northern Ireland as a flashpoint for the London Olympics.

The fact is, China for many reasons is a target. It's a target because people in the rest of the world are afraid of a new superpower. It's a target because the country has been so successful and has been seen wrongly as 'stealing' jobs from the first world (when in fact free trade in the end helps everyone via lower prices). It's a target because it can easily be blamed for other things wrong in the world such as global warming (which America and Australia do not wish to address either). It's a target because it supports Sudan and thus is a silent partner on Darfur, and since voters in the West have been unwilling to do more to help those in Darfur via their own governments, it's much easier to just have a scapegoat. And finally it's a target because the Tibetans have done excellent PR in their quest for greater autonomy.

There is no international support for Quebec separatists, no international support for ETA, no international support for the IRA, and no consistent Western support for even the Palestinians. But the Dali Lama has done an excellent job of PR, so much so that rioting protesters who kill people and burn buildings are actually seen as Ghandi-esque non-violent protesters who were sitting down and doing nothing while being shot at in the West.


Getting back to Beijing, because the Olympics are seen as a major source of pride for ordinary Chinese people (and the large Chinese diaspora around the world), and because ordinary Chinese people feel they are largely treated the same as how the Tibetans are treated by their government (which generally means, play by the rules and get rich, don't play by the rules and be arrested) and they also have very little method to change this as China is not a democracy, any attack on treatment on the Tibetans just doesn't really make sense in China.

To Chinese citizens, the question becomes: Why is it such a big deal to treat your own citizens the same way that you'd treat any other of your own citizens (namely violent protests will be subdued violently), and why try and ruin the one big event that everyone's been looking forward to which at least is a bit of fun in otherwise hardworking and dreary lives?

Thus an attack on the Olympics in Beijing is a direct attack on Chinese people.


And yes while I agree that assaulting innocent protesters is uncalled for, whose to say that these protesters aren't shipped in by the busload by international organizations who want to give China a bad name for their own political means? Who's to say that Tibet protesters who snuff out the Olympic flame and attack torch bearers (who are frequently Olympic heroes running inside their OWN countries) is perfectly acceptable while protesters supporting China is somehow not allowed? I think there is a very big double standard here.

The basic message is, the Olympics is something that most Chinese people are looking forward to and can be proud of. An attack on these games is such a direct attack on these people, and will not be seen as an attack for the greater good of some obscure protest movement in some corner of the country where 99% of the country has no contact with anyway and only directed at the government.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 08:54 AM   #10
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ha, what a lie.

The thing is we are a democratic country, so there is so no censorship of media, and the internet is there for anyone who wants in depth information on anything.

When you say western media doesn't tell you the whole story? What opposed to the Chinese government, lol. I hear they censored all footage of the protests from the torch relay. Other censored things include the 1989 protests at tianamen square, websites about falun gong, youtube, wikipedia, the amnesty international website, the human rights watch website.
Exactly

Australia's Chinese immigrant population is huge, it was obvious that this was going to happen. The actions of many of the pro-Chinese was disgusting to say the least. The amount of censorship in China is enormous, and then the media there tries to portray us in the Western world as having the 'corrupt news sources aimed at discrediting China' - how can a nation of over a billion people be so stupid as to believe this? I guess the Beijing propaganda machine is still just as powerful as ever.

One thing that the world media should be ashamed of though, is reporting that all anti-China demonstrators were there in support of a free Tibet, when in actual fact most were protesting the general human rights situation in China. The entire nation is a human rights violation. It will never be considered a 'civilised country' until that area is cleaned up and democracy is instated.

I used to believe in a boycott of the Bejing Games, but now however I feel that it's good for them to have them. The amount of international media that will be there is the PERFECT opportunity for activists, campaigners and grassroot organisations to grab the spotlight and highlight what is really happening in China. This happens to every country that hosts the Games, and it's very naive and ignorant of China to think that the world would watch on in awe without looking past the spectacle and into the real situation.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 01:17 PM   #11
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I have never suggested or even hinted that Chinese media is free from bias. In fact I agree Chinese media is far worse than its Western counterparts when it comes to one-sided news reports.

But when I said that Australian media doesn't always tell people the whole story, that it is not free from bias, I meant it. Those who claim that Australian media is well balanced are kidding themselves. Some Australians simply enjoy wrapping up in the comfort blanket of China-bashing, kidding themselves that they are pure and morally righteous and that China is dirty and irresponsible.

In my opinion, given China annexed Tibet long before the first European set his foot on Australia, China's claim to Tibet is at least as valid as white men's claim to Australia. Accordingly any attempt to separate Tibet from China should be crushed. This may not sound morally perfect, but it is the reality. Tibet became a part of China in as early as the 17th century and is still part of China. If anyone in the West does not agree, and finds Tibetans' violent struggle to independence legitmate, then perhaps he/she should first examine the legitimacy of the existence of Australia, Canada, or for that matter, the United States.

In any case, those natives in Australia and north America did not voluntarily give up their land to Europeans. Those violent attempts by natives to resist white settlement were crushed in the most barbaric ways imaginable. And this is well documented. The reason why there is no resistence today is not because the natives love the Crown or the American Constitution or the white men's way of life so much, it is because they have been renderred completely powerless to resist through generations of assiminations.

I am not suggesting that given Australia commited some atrocities in the past and still fails the correct the wrong by returnning the land today, therefore China is entitled to commit atrocities at home at least to the same extent. All I am saying is that China's claim to Tibet is legitimate, and therefore China is entitled to protect its national unity and integrity by silencing Tibetan separatist attempts, even if it means by force. Is there a more civilised way? Of course there is. We can certainly envisage a Tibetan referendum. But what would this mean to China? China is still recovering from decades of wars and mis-managements from the last century, an intependent Tibet would certainly open the floodgate of other domestic independent movements, which is the last thing in the world Chinese people want. We can certainly also envisage at least decades of Chinese civil wars after Tibetan independence. And who is to benefit from all these? definitely not the Chinese, but probably some ill-minded people in CIA.

The CCP's strong opposition to Tibet independence is in line with public opinion in China. Suppression of Tibetan independence movements, or some in the West like to call it, human rights violations in Tibet, is not merely an independent CCP policy, it finds support in the majority of Chinese. The CCP will be in deep domestic trouble if it stops the suppression or agree to any substantial conccession in relation to Tibet independence.

Some might be quick to point out that all Chinese people are brainwashed by the CCP propoganda machines. All I wanna say is that Chinese people are not incapable of independent thinking. Government propoganda no doubt plays a part in shaping public opinion, but it is definitely not as big a part as many in the West would think, otherwise the tragic Tiananmen Massacre which involved millions of ordinary young Chinese trying to bring down the CCP would never have occured.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 01:29 PM   #12
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One thing that the world media should be ashamed of though, is reporting that all anti-China demonstrators were there in support of a free Tibet, when in actual fact most were protesting the general human rights situation in China. The entire nation is a human rights violation. It will never be considered a 'civilised country' until that area is cleaned up and democracy is instated.

I agree whole heartedly.

Personally, I don't think an independent Tibet is the best option right now -- but further autonomy within China. And more transparency within China on internal human rights issues.

I think Tibet separating right now would be bad for both China and Tibet. However, Chinese Government deserves increasing critcism for its treatment of its own people and the Tibetans.
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Old April 25th, 2008, 02:10 PM   #13
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LOL I see a lot of double standards in this thread. I won't further comment on this topic, as I have done a lot in the past two weeks. I will just post more pictures for you to "enjoy"

credit: big-dog

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Old April 25th, 2008, 03:40 PM   #14
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This forum section is for selfmade photos so remove that shitty quote which quite well manages to vandalize this page
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Old April 25th, 2008, 04:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Thus an attack on the Olympics in Beijing is a direct attack on Chinese people.
QFT

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This forum section is for selfmade photos so remove that shitty quote which quite well manages to vandalize this page
who cares, this thread is gonna be locked sooner or later, what is a politically motivated thread doing in Urban Showcase anyways?
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Old April 26th, 2008, 06:56 AM   #16
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Well it's actually the section for 'self made photos' so I decided to share what I saw.
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Old April 26th, 2008, 09:27 AM   #17
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The protestors ruined the torch relay.
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Old April 26th, 2008, 12:02 PM   #18
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The protestors ruined the torch relay.
For better or worse --- both parties had a right to be there.

The IOC needs to deal with the baggage which comes with giving the Olympics to somewhere like Beijing. I fully support Beijing hosting -- I think it's exciting and it's a big moment for China -- however it is also a moment that can't pass without recognising China's flaws, along with its achievements.
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Old April 26th, 2008, 01:46 PM   #19
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Everyone has the right to protest.
If you live in Australia yes. If you live in Hong Kong, maybe. If you live in China, hell no. I have no problem with the "Oh, those bloody Tibetans are protesting, me must do the same" argument but don't you see the irony of Chinese people not being able to do the same in the PRC?

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The fact that there are more pro-China activists out there reflect reality. The international community is very clear in asserting the fact that Tibet is a part of China.
1.3 Billion Han Chinese vs. A few million Tibetans. Han Chinese Win!!!!1! No honey, it doesn't work that way. The international community isn't saying anything. It doesn't care about the Tibet, or China, and will pay only a little attention to the Olympics. Don't get yourself deluded mate.

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Also, I don't buy the excuse that protests against China and the Chinese government are different. To the ordinary Chinese, an attack on our national sovereignty is not directed only at the government in Beijing, but at all Chinese people who value our national integrity.
That's the problem with some Chinese people. (And some people of every other country, mind you.) They're lead to believe by Beijing that they're the ones being attacked by "TEH WEST!!!1!". No they aren't. A few guys in government isn't the same as 1.3 Billion people. Let's be a little sophisticated. CITIZENS. GOVERNMENT. SEPARATE. If we can't attack countries in the fear of being portrayed that we're attacking the peoples of that country then we better not criticize any governments at all! Wouldn't that be great?

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Politics and sports are not supposed to mix, and trying to put out the Olympic flame is quite an insulting slap at the Olympic movement, in my opinion.
Politics and sport are not meant to mix? That's such a stupid and naive statement, especially one coming from a moderator.

Sport is always going to be political. Especially the Olympics. You are, after all taking about countries bidding against one another to host the games, and then states competing each other for medals. These countries are political entities. They're not "nations" or "ethnic groups" or "religious groups. Countries.

"Olympic movement". What bullshit. The olympics are so commercialized it's hilarious. No matter how many lame slogans (Celebrity Humanity!!!) you create for it it's not going to change the fact it's a tool used and abused by populist politicians, Western corporations and the Elite Athletes for economic and political gain. The Olympics are a joke.

But having said that, I recognize that fact many Chinese see this moment as China's reawakening and something they've been waiting for years after Sydney snatched it in 1993 for the 2000 bid. I recognize that organizing the Olympics means a lot to countries like the PRC, and their citizens, and to have a few morons try to hijack it makes them angry.

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Beijing 2008 was never intended to be a political games. It was a symbolic event to mark China's entry into the modern world as a powerful nation.
Why do you contradict yourself?

Line 1: NO THE OLYMPICS AREN'T POLITICAL.
Line 2: IT'S A SYMBOL OF CHINA'S NEW POWER.

Riiight. Not very bright are you?


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It's not like a North Korean-style showcase.
No, the PRC is becoming to Americanised to be anything as authentically communist like North Korea.

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Chinese people around the world are proud to pull off such a feat and make such an entrance to the international arena.
Ethnic Chinese people around the world are proud to be Chinese, and the PRC government is trying to exploit this to legitimize their regime. They aren't elected by the their citizens after all so their grip on power is based on purely nationalistic sentiments.


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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
In fact, the opinion on the ground in China is much more positive towards the Communists than the West. People are living far better lives today and the country is getting very wealthy, worthy to be a powerful force in the world.
Yup, living standards are improving for millions of people on a scale unseen in human history. It's a big achievement. I want to see more political reform, however. It will be great if citizens are able able to elect their government and another party other than the CCCP runs the show every now and then. You know, like the Republic of China (Taiwan) had elections in 1996. That would be fantastic.

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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
That aspect seems to be ignored by the Western media, which tends to cast a bad light on what doesn't resemble them.
I agree. Western media, when it comes to China, is always focusing on the negatives. I'm not sure why, but I still believe "western Media" (such a broad definition it's almost useless) is more balanced than the crap you see on CCTV 1, 2, 3, 4....

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That's the Western ignorance these nationalists are trying to counter as the global axis of power shifts.
A few morons jumping up and down are not going to "counter" the ultra power media networks in the west. Just like a few morons in the West aren't going to "free" Tibet.

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I don't think the anti-Iraq contingent would rain on London 2012 like what the Tibetans are doing.
Those Tibetan supporters in the West are nuts. Being Chinese-Australian myself, it's a shame to see Chinese people going down to that level. I thought we were more restraint that that
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Old April 26th, 2008, 04:06 PM   #20
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"Oh, those bloody Tibetans are protesting, me must do the same" argument but don't you see the irony of Chinese people not being able to do the same in the PRC?
There has been anti-French protests in China lately, however if you are only getting your news from ABC then you are not likely to know about it.
Anyways once I saw a paper for CRITICIZING China for having over 60000 protests annually, apparently the country with the most number of protests in the world. I am not exactly sure how they got that number, but it must be stupid to claim Chinese cannot do the same in China, maybe not to the extent of violence as what have been happening in London and Paris.

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who value our national integrity.

That's the problem with some Chinese people. (And some people of every other country, mind you.) They're lead to believe by Beijing that they're the ones being attacked by "TEH WEST!!!1!". No they aren't. A few guys in government isn't the same as 1.3 Billion people. Let's be a little sophisticated. CITIZENS. GOVERNMENT. SEPARATE. If we can't attack countries in the fear of being portrayed that we're attacking the peoples of that country then we better not criticize any governments at all! Wouldn't that be great?
I guess when Jack Cafferty called 1.3 billion Chinese thugs and goons, he wasn't thinking of that.
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