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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #221
CrazySerb
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IFC Helps Finance Highway Bypass in Montenegro’s Capital, Enabling Trade Flows and Tourism
28/12/2010 10:55 (1 Day 15:32 minutes ago)

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The FINANCIAL -- IFC, a member of the World Bank Group, is lending about €10 million to Montenegro’s capital city of Podgorica to help complete a bypass highway that will eliminate traffic bottleneck on the road leading to the Adriatic Sea.

According to IFC, the new highway will enable easier access by tourists to the Adriatic coast, and contribute to the country’s reintegration into international trade networks.

“The Eastern Bypass is a priority for the city of Podgorica. It is a project of regional importance, and IFC has proven to be a reliable and responsive partner for its completion,” said Miomir Mugosa, Mayor of Podgorica.

The total cost of the project is about €30 million, and IFC’s long-term financing reflects its strategic focus on enabling investments in municipal infrastructure in the region. The European Union recognized the project as a regional priority and provided a grant of €4 million for its completion.

“The citizens of Podgorica also will benefit from reduced air pollution and fewer traffic accidents,” said Giovanni Daniele, IFC Resident Representative in the Western Balkans. “We see this as a first step toward building a long-term partnership with the city of Podgorica and the people of Montenegro.”

Podgorica is the capital of Montenegro and its largest city, with a population of around 200,000. Podgorica is also the administrative, financial, telecommunications, and university center of the country, with a strong economic base focusing on the aluminum, construction, and tourism sectors.
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Old January 17th, 2011, 09:45 PM   #222
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Just face it. The project will take years to finish no matter who you put in charge of the job. There simply isn't enough demand for a motorway yet. That's why they have not secured the funding, because nobody is willing to invest because they know that the return will be awful. You can't avoid that by firing the company each time it happens. That's just like saccing the manager of a football team when they loose, even though its the players fault!

And even if it is built, nobody is going to pay 15,5 eurocent per kilometer! Most companies would instruct their trucks to use normal roads and most private motorists would not find it worth it. 15,5 cents is three times the Croatian Motorways! And in Croatia there is already a considerable amount of 'shunpiking' (avoiding toll motorways), just imagine what Montenegro will be like! And that's before you add into the equation that Croatia has much higher tourist and commercial demand for motorways.

Finally, why is Montenegro building Bar-Beograd Motorway as a higher priority than the Adricatic-Ionian! There is clearly more demand for this route and Montengro would be able to cash in on it; the main route to Greece from the rest of Europe would be through Montenegro and not Serbia/Macedonia! Think of all the motorways in Croatia jam packed with eager-to-pay-toll tourists. They could all be funneling into Montenegro! They just need to sort out their priorities and face the fact that the Belgrade-Bar motorway isn't in their best interest (although it may be in Serbia's).

Forgive me for being sceptical but this just won't work now, maybe in 10 or 15 years.

In short:
Does Montenegro need motorways? No
Could Montenegro benefit from a motorway? Yes
Is that Motorway the Belgrade-Bar motorway? No
Which motorway is it? The Adriatic-Ionian
Why is that not their priority? ...I'll let you answer that one!
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Old January 18th, 2011, 06:38 PM   #223
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@Halitophobe: I agree with you!

For Montenegro the Adriatic-Ionian Motorway would be more "profitable" (don't mind just the earnings from the tolls, of the big transit traffic from south (Albania and Greece), but also the economic issues). But the government is more interested to build the Beograd-Bar Motorway (is there a connection with the Beograd-Bar Railway? I think it's the same reason like in the past), which will link MNE only with Serbia. The more cheaper montenegrin part of the Adriatic-Ionian Motorway would link MNE with HR (and via HR in the shortest and fastest way to the EU) and this small country would also benefit from AL + GR transit traffic and the economical boost, which we can expect in that case.

Ps.: How long would it take to build that Motorway? 3 years? A quite short time compared with the BB-Motorway. What's with the serbian part of the BB-Motorway? When are they expected to start construction? I think Novi Sad-Horgos, Nis-Bulgaria, Beograd Motorway ring & Beograd - Kragujevac are more important?

pozdrav

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Old January 18th, 2011, 11:29 PM   #224
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Absolutely!

In fact, it would be easier to build A-I motorway as the Croatian A1 is only a hundred kilometers away and so it could be quickly connected. But BB motorway requires hundreds of kilometers to be built in Serbia until it can actually be completed, overall this could take 3 times as long as the AI motorway.
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Old January 19th, 2011, 10:36 AM   #225
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I partially can agree with above posts, but don't forget a few facts about natural flow of Montenegrin economy and population.

Montenegro needs to connect itself much better on the line south-north. Northern parts of Montenegro aren't well connected with more prosperous coastline areas (prosperous in terms of tourism mostly). The biggest trunks of Montenegrin industry are in northern parts of the country, as well as the future areas to develop.

Montenegro is naturally linked with Serbia and not with Albania or Croatia and BH. Here I assume enormous population percentage living, studing and working in Serbia. Nearly all population flows in and out of Montenegro is directed towards Serbia. Population of Montenegrins and/or familly ties in Serbia is equal to a total Montenegrin population.

The highest percentage of tourists that spend their holidays during summer time in Montenegro comes from Serbia. Statistics for 2009 showed numbers up to 80% of all tourists.

Almost complete economy routes, import and export routes and sources, are linked with Serbia. Import of industrial sources, comodities, food, services, are almost all coming into Montenegro via Serbia, with smaller percentage coming maritime via Bar. Serbia also has very high interests for using Bar as a maritime transport hub.

Serbia already started constructing a motorway to Montenegro. Stage between Belgrade and Ub is currently under public discussion about the most proper project (left bank of Sava + bridge vs right bank against a loosy ground conditions,etc..), stage between Ub and Neprichava (correct me about the labels if I'm wrong) is currently under construction, and other stages are currently on public tenders or going to be on tenders in very near future (talks with Turkish constructors are currently ongoing).

I disagree about importance of Adria-Ionic motorway. Just calculate how many vehicles cross both border points between Montenegro and Albania, compare it with Montenegro/Serbia. The number is miserable. Economic ties between Montenegro and Albania/Greece are minor. Montenegro certainly requires much better link with Croatia and possibly with Bosnia.
Yet, motorway on this route won't have any effect on Montenegrin internal economy (no north-south connection), and won't mean too much after connecting with Albania, as there's simply no demand. Even then, Albania doesn't invest into the other part of the motorway.

Btw, you can find much more info on this issues, with statistical data and tables, on Montenegrin roads thread in Serbian section, but also in a thread 'In numbers' in Serbian section. Feel welcome to come there and contribute.
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Old January 19th, 2011, 01:33 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vectom View Post
I partially can agree with above posts, but don't forget a few facts about natural flow of Montenegrin economy and population.

Montenegro needs to connect itself much better on the line south-north. Northern parts of Montenegro aren't well connected with more prosperous coastline areas (prosperous in terms of tourism mostly). The biggest trunks of Montenegrin industry are in northern parts of the country, as well as the future areas to develop.

Montenegro is naturally linked with Serbia and not with Albania or Croatia and BH. Here I assume enormous population percentage living, studing and working in Serbia. Nearly all population flows in and out of Montenegro is directed towards Serbia. Population of Montenegrins and/or familly ties in Serbia is equal to a total Montenegrin population.

The highest percentage of tourists that spend their holidays during summer time in Montenegro comes from Serbia. Statistics for 2009 showed numbers up to 80% of all tourists.

Almost complete economy routes, import and export routes and sources, are linked with Serbia. Import of industrial sources, comodities, food, services, are almost all coming into Montenegro via Serbia, with smaller percentage coming maritime via Bar. Serbia also has very high interests for using Bar as a maritime transport hub.

Serbia already started constructing a motorway to Montenegro. Stage between Belgrade and Ub is currently under public discussion about the most proper project (left bank of Sava + bridge vs right bank against a loosy ground conditions,etc..), stage between Ub and Neprichava (correct me about the labels if I'm wrong) is currently under construction, and other stages are currently on public tenders or going to be on tenders in very near future (talks with Turkish constructors are currently ongoing).

I disagree about importance of Adria-Ionic motorway. Just calculate how many vehicles cross both border points between Montenegro and Albania, compare it with Montenegro/Serbia. The number is miserable. Economic ties between Montenegro and Albania/Greece are minor. Montenegro certainly requires much better link with Croatia and possibly with Bosnia.
Yet, motorway on this route won't have any effect on Montenegrin internal economy (no north-south connection), and won't mean too much after connecting with Albania, as there's simply no demand. Even then, Albania doesn't invest into the other part of the motorway.

Btw, you can find much more info on this issues, with statistical data and tables, on Montenegrin roads thread in Serbian section, but also in a thread 'In numbers' in Serbian section. Feel welcome to come there and contribute.

Lets face it, even the truck firms keep an eye on each euro. I have been told that they ferry their trucks and than fly out from Slovenia/Italy. On top of it, most of the trucks are Turkish, not Greek. You can spot them on the E75....
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Old January 20th, 2011, 08:51 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vectom View Post
I partially can agree with above posts, but don't forget a few facts about natural flow of Montenegrin economy and population.

Montenegro needs to connect itself much better on the line south-north. Northern parts of Montenegro aren't well connected with more prosperous coastline areas (prosperous in terms of tourism mostly). The biggest trunks of Montenegrin industry are in northern parts of the country, as well as the future areas to develop.

Montenegro is naturally linked with Serbia and not with Albania or Croatia and BH. Here I assume enormous population percentage living, studing and working in Serbia. Nearly all population flows in and out of Montenegro is directed towards Serbia. Population of Montenegrins and/or familly ties in Serbia is equal to a total Montenegrin population.

The highest percentage of tourists that spend their holidays during summer time in Montenegro comes from Serbia. Statistics for 2009 showed numbers up to 80% of all tourists.

Almost complete economy routes, import and export routes and sources, are linked with Serbia. Import of industrial sources, comodities, food, services, are almost all coming into Montenegro via Serbia, with smaller percentage coming maritime via Bar. Serbia also has very high interests for using Bar as a maritime transport hub.

Serbia already started constructing a motorway to Montenegro. Stage between Belgrade and Ub is currently under public discussion about the most proper project (left bank of Sava + bridge vs right bank against a loosy ground conditions,etc..), stage between Ub and Neprichava (correct me about the labels if I'm wrong) is currently under construction, and other stages are currently on public tenders or going to be on tenders in very near future (talks with Turkish constructors are currently ongoing).

I disagree about importance of Adria-Ionic motorway. Just calculate how many vehicles cross both border points between Montenegro and Albania, compare it with Montenegro/Serbia. The number is miserable. Economic ties between Montenegro and Albania/Greece are minor. Montenegro certainly requires much better link with Croatia and possibly with Bosnia.
Yet, motorway on this route won't have any effect on Montenegrin internal economy (no north-south connection), and won't mean too much after connecting with Albania, as there's simply no demand. Even then, Albania doesn't invest into the other part of the motorway.

Btw, you can find much more info on this issues, with statistical data and tables, on Montenegrin roads thread in Serbian section, but also in a thread 'In numbers' in Serbian section. Feel welcome to come there and contribute.
Some very valid points, but you must remeber two main facts:

1. With the A-I motorway you are not trying to link MNE and ALB, you are thinking to link it with Greece and Turkey as well. Keep that in mind. And that's just from the south. In the north, you can connect with Italy, Croatia, Slovenia, Austria, Germany, Hungary and pretty much every other country in Europe. The B-B motorway is not ,on-the-way to anywhere except Belgrade. MNE must now decide whether trade from the whole of...Belgrade, is more important and worth more money than trade from the whole of Europe.(hint hint)

2. The only reason why there is so much trade from Belgrade and so little to everywhere else is because Belgrade was the only place with descent connections to MNE. There is now an oppurtunity to connect with other places. Why waste it on yet another meaningless connection with Belgrade.
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Old January 21st, 2011, 09:57 AM   #228
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Now I absolutely don't agree with you, cos I think you're not understanding the subject and real facts in the area.

No one here mentions Belgrade as it is. What is a fact is that Montenegrin economy and people are closely and sustainable tied to Serbia, not Belgrade exclusively. Other thing is loose connection between Montenegrin integral parts on the north/south axis. Third thing is flow of commodities/services in the area, which in this moment does flow through Serbia and from Serbia (in terms of motorways that we're talking about). Fourth thing is that European factor you mention, check maps before you put such easy statements, as Serbia isn't central Asian neighbor at all. Fifth thing is local economy structure of Montenegro, which requires wider approach to explain, but I'll try if you ask so.

Basically, I described these a bit more detailed in my previous post above, and you have plenty of statistical official data on those threads I recommended.

For yourself, you can dig down some real data about usage of so called Corridor 10, so called 11, Danube, and then you could see why there's no bit of reasonability to ignore Montenegro's quality link with Serbia.

On the other hand, motorway that follows coastline is totally not needed in this moment, and will remain such for decades, if it gets built today for example. Except seasonal usage of tourists, but only in case that structure of Montenegro's tourists changes rapidly in favor of non-Serbian residents coming down from Croatia, which doesn't happen in last 60+ years for multiple times percentage rate. I would love to see any of these motorways being built down there, but lets face data and be real. I dare to say that Montenegro even doesn't need Bar-Boljare motorway profile at the moment, but I guess costs/whatyouget ratio is better calculated by those engineers.

Also, I've got a question. Have you ever been in Montenegro? How much you know about the country and its past/present economical/population/social issues? Have you ever worked in Montenegro, or in Serbia, or in both?

cheers
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 01:16 AM   #229
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I am not proposing that there is no connection between Montenegro and Serbia, but rather that the Adriatic-Ionian Motorway has more potential that the Belgrade-Bar Motorway, which it does. Nobody denies the economic link between Serbia and Montenegro. But the link with the rest of Europe has more potential, even if it isnt more important now. Finally, nobody implied that Serbia was in Central Asia, but just try and tell me that it is faster to get to Germany, France and Britain via Belgrade than it is Via the A-I Motorway!

Next time, read the posts properly before writing such strong responses!
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 01:17 AM   #230
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... and BTW, I HAVE BEEN IN MONTENEGRO EVERY SUMMER SINCE I WAS 3!!!
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 02:51 AM   #231
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hahhaa what kind of bullshit I can read on here.....

As long as those Turkish/Greek trucks take the Serbian route, You can have the leftovers from the superpower nations like Albania..... That's how it has been for the last 40 years. I am confident they would take the Serbian route even if you guys charged nothing. It is faster and cheaper.
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 01:42 PM   #232
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You just don't get it do you:

1. The AI motorway is more direct to northern Europe.

2. In a few years Croatia and Montnegro will be Schengen and they will only have to pass through Albania (which will probably become schengen at some point, requiring no border check). Serbia has no intention of joining and so there will always be border checks on that route!

3. The AI route has more potential (I.E. there will be more traffic).

4. AGAIN WITH THE STRONG RESPONSES!!!!
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 03:23 PM   #233
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I don't want to enter your debate here, but
1. have you thought that maybe Montenegrins don't have those interests?
2. HR and MNE in Schengen you say? They aren't even EU members yet. RO and BG are for some time now, and look how many problems are with joining Schengen.
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 04:55 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halitophobe View Post
I am not proposing that there is no connection between Montenegro and Serbia, but rather that the Adriatic-Ionian Motorway has more potential that the Belgrade-Bar Motorway, which it does. Nobody denies the economic link between Serbia and Montenegro. But the link with the rest of Europe has more potential, even if it isnt more important now. Finally, nobody implied that Serbia was in Central Asia, but just try and tell me that it is faster to get to Germany, France and Britain via Belgrade than it is Via the A-I Motorway!

Next time, read the posts properly before writing such strong responses!
Let me asko you one thing do you think that Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Poland, Czechia, Austria, Bulgaria are not Europe?
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 06:37 PM   #235
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What??? I never said that they weren't in Europe! And even for them, AI route would be quicker! SInce when do they travel via Belgrade? Maybe if they were coming from Russia or Ukraine or somewhere further east, but since when do they go to Montenegro (with the exception of a few Russian Millionaire's)? Besides, if they were coming from that far the would fly and even then only for a few weeks every summer. What MNE should be looking for is a sustainable, year round economic link, on a large scale (i.e. not just Belgrade)!

And why exactly would the Montenegrin People want to be connected only with Belgrade? Its the people who wanted the AI motorway in the first place. BB motorway was the governments idea (and lets face it, when does the government ever agree with the people)! Ask a Montenegrin and they will choose AI (for obvious reasons), ask a Serbian and they will say BB (for obvious reasons).

Face it, the AI has more potential than BB!
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 07:25 PM   #236
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There are many romanians that go on holiday in Montenegro and use the route via Belgrade. Belgrade is a transport node in this part of Europe and from Turkey or Greece it will be easier to get to central-northern Europe through Belgrade or by sea. Almost no one will travel from Greece to Trieste by land, most drivers will use the ferry.
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 11:05 PM   #237
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i Dont think so...The ferry from Igoumenitsa to brindisi takes 8 hours :S when Adriatic - Ionian motorway will be built, it will be a lot faster to go via Albania - Montenegro - Croatia - Italy by driving .
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Old January 24th, 2011, 01:31 AM   #238
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What??? I never said that they weren't in Europe! And even for them, AI route would be quicker! SInce when do they travel via Belgrade? Maybe if they were coming from Russia or Ukraine or somewhere further east, but since when do they go to Montenegro (with the exception of a few Russian Millionaire's)? Besides, if they were coming from that far the would fly and even then only for a few weeks every summer. What MNE should be looking for is a sustainable, year round economic link, on a large scale (i.e. not just Belgrade)!

And why exactly would the Montenegrin People want to be connected only with Belgrade? Its the people who wanted the AI motorway in the first place. BB motorway was the governments idea (and lets face it, when does the government ever agree with the people)! Ask a Montenegrin and they will choose AI (for obvious reasons), ask a Serbian and they will say BB (for obvious reasons).

Face it, the AI has more potential than BB!
1st You have said that when connected with Belgrade they are not connected with Europe. But how will you get from ME to Hungary or Romania etc. if not trough Belgrade?
2nd how come it is quicker for them to use AI?
3rd Why it is connection with Budapest, Vienna, Bucharest etc. not larger scale?
4th off course common people in MNE want to be connected with all neighbour countries, but the question here is not whether or not, but priorities. And BB is for people in MNE priority, you have already heard argument why.
5th Where did you get that silly idea that people would chose AI motorway that connect nothing in MNE with nothing?! What is the common sense in that?

And i want to add that AI has very good alternative motorway Skopje-Belgrade-Zagreb-Ljubljana. Motorway is almost whole full profile and it exist and imaginary AI would be just one more alternative. Where BB has no alternatives it would be the only motorway connecting MNE and north-east Europe.

Last edited by Bad_Hafen; January 24th, 2011 at 01:38 AM.
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Old January 24th, 2011, 01:35 AM   #239
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i Dont think so...The ferry from Igoumenitsa to brindisi takes 8 hours :S when Adriatic - Ionian motorway will be built, it will be a lot faster to go via Albania - Montenegro - Croatia - Italy by driving .
Faster? How long it would be? Lets say it is 1000km long, you can make it faster than 8 hours i dont think so. And dont forget that you have to pass 7 countries.

Last edited by Bad_Hafen; January 24th, 2011 at 01:40 AM.
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Old January 24th, 2011, 11:10 AM   #240
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Halitophobe, just a few things,

first, please be consistent and refer to areas/states instead of cities. that's when being correct in terms

second, this is the age of internet. you can easily check all the data I was heading you to, by visiting those threads I gave you recommendation, and also by checking all the distances on viamichelin or similar. Before you set a statement, check what you're claiming. For example, if we're talking about kilometers, viamichelin will prove you that you're in fact very wrong with given distances and claims that you base upon them.

Also, try to hide your irrational hatred towards Montenegro's neighboring country Serbia. Maybe I'm wrong when I'm saying this, but my general opinion is that you disaprove and fake all the facts about that country (Schengen and EU integrations process of Serbia for example, also disambiguatin of Serbia as being Belgrade exclusively).

The last, but the most important, motorways are being constructed for boosting up economies, as they are infrastructure units after all. Check all the data I already wrote or gave link to, and if you think we are all wrong, give your own facts and data that dissaprove these (with sources pls).

If you're plainly doing this emotionally (based on ethnic hatred), don't worry about me, I'm only interested into maths and facts, construction and development. In fact, I'm typing this from Zagreb, if that changes things for you
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