daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 24th, 2011, 03:43 AM   #441
stickedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kronach
Posts: 762
Likes (Received): 121

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbenit View Post
I may be completely wrong. But, as much as I know, planned route of the AI motorway goes from Metkovic via Trebinje to Niksic, avoiding mountainous region difficult for motorway building in Croatia this way?
No, the A1 is planned from Metkovic to Dubrovnik. Afaik it's not decided yet if it will cross BiH territory at Neum or if it will use Pelješac bridge. Near Dubrovnik, the A1 will enter BiH territory and go to Trebinje. From there it will enter Montenegro near Grahovo and lead to Podgorica.
stickedy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 24th, 2011, 09:33 AM   #442
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
No, the A1 is planned from Metkovic to Dubrovnik. Afaik it's not decided yet if it will cross BiH territory at Neum or if it will use Pelješac bridge. Near Dubrovnik, the A1 will enter BiH territory and go to Trebinje. From there it will enter Montenegro near Grahovo and lead to Podgorica.
this is not correct, there is no info regarding the topic
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2011, 12:22 PM   #443
stickedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kronach
Posts: 762
Likes (Received): 121

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Hafen View Post
this is not correct, there is no info regarding the topic
??

Border crossing near Grahovo / Nudo: http://www.bizon.ba/ekonomija/11697-...ore-i-bih.html
Spatial plan of Montenegro: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:M..._motorways.JPG
A1 to Dubrovnik (Osojnik): http://www.jutarnji.hr/sanader-otvor...ovnika/205184/ - http://www.business.hr/hr/Naslovnica...-milijuna-kuna - http://www.huka.hr/objekti/zakonodav...C2009-2012.pdf

This is all clear
stickedy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2011, 06:12 PM   #444
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

I know for the part between MNE and BiH, I was talking about Croatian A1 southern of Metkovic. It is not clear whether they will build it.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2011, 01:31 AM   #445
stickedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kronach
Posts: 762
Likes (Received): 121

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Hafen View Post
I know for the part between MNE and BiH, I was talking about Croatian A1 southern of Metkovic. It is not clear whether they will build it.
When they have the money, they'll build it. Everything is ready... Connecting Dubrovnik is a rather high priority for Croatia. And since Crotia will be the external frontier of the EU soon, a connection through BiH is no alternative. And apart from this, BiH has neither the money nor the desire to build a motorway from the border at Metkovic to Trebinje.

It's also rather interesting who will pay for the 30 km of motorway near Trebinje from Croatian border to Montenegrin border. That motorway has in fact no advantage for BiH, so I doubt that they will spend any money on this project at all. So I fear that we will have a gap in Adriatic-Ionian motorway for many, many years in the future. Perhaps Montenegro will build motorway from Podgorica to Grahovo in - let's say - 10 years, so you can use the road Risan - Žabljak to avoid Kotor bay (mostly) and the mountain passes to get to Podgorica, but the motorway part Dubronvik - Trebinje - Grahovo through BiH will be a very, very future project in my opinion.

I really guess that we will see an expressway connection Dubrovnik - Herceg Novi - Tivat - Bar sooner than this motorway part. Except someone else pays for the motorway in BiH: But Croatia has no real interest for that and Montenegro doesn't have the money to spend it in a foreign country. So, the only possibility for early building is EU money - and this won't be available unless Montenegro also becomes part of the EU or Adriatic-Ionian Motorway becomes part of the Transeuropean corridors. Judge by yourself...

But I guess, you'll see some progress of A1 towards Dubrovnik when Croatia joins the EU at the latest. It's rather difficult to get the needed credits from banks these days for such projects...
stickedy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2011, 09:12 AM   #446
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160


Maybe it is priority that A1 reaches Dubrovnik, but i highly doubt it will be build soon. I think BiH will join EU before Croatia build this motorway, so it will not be neither smart nor efficient to build motorway trough Croatian territory, so EU will not finance it.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2011, 01:12 PM   #447
darko06
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 774
Likes (Received): 149

Let's be real.
Ok, Croatia will enter the EU in year 2013, let's say enter the Schengen in 2016.
For example, Serbia will enter the EU in year 2020, the Schengen in 2023.
But Bosnia won't be ready to enter the EU till year 2025 or 2030. (Mostly because incongruences between the Republika of Srpska and the rest of this country.)
Therefore I'm pretty sure that the expressway from Ploče via Pelješac, Dubrovnik, Ćilipi and Hercegnovi to Tivat will be finished till 2020.
And guess what?
Suppose that Montenegro enters the EU together with Serbia. In that case the expressway which avoids BH territory would become European priority (Trebinje, bye, bye).
darko06 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2011, 08:44 PM   #448
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

The thing is that you can not be sure when will BiH enter EU. SO your 20 years prediction is just plain stupid. Second thing it is impossible to build expressway avoiding BiH territory. So no bye bye for Tebinje, plus you are now talking about expressway, and we were talking about motorway all the time.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2011, 09:43 PM   #449
darko06
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 774
Likes (Received): 149

And you obviously didn't or didn't want to comprehend my latest argument: it is certain that Montenegro will enter the EU before BH (and for many years before), probably entering Schengen at the same time. In that moment, for Europe it will be the cheapest solution to finance the expressway from Metković via Pelješac via Dubrovnik via Herceg Novi to Tivat, probably with similar geometry as Nova Gorica-Razdrto expressway in Slovenia (steep grades, smaller curves, Vmax=100 km/h). Pelješac bridge and expressway to Dubrovnik (probably even to Ćilipi airport) will be started in 2016 and finished in 2020, so the Montenegrin side will be obliged to build only a bridge in Boka Kotorska bay. And from Tivat there is a few kms to the southern portal of Sozina tunnel, which is the beginning of BB motorway. Advance: the whole expressway will be INSIDE Schengen borders.
Glad to arguing with you.
darko06 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2011, 11:43 PM   #450
stickedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kronach
Posts: 762
Likes (Received): 121

darko06 is completly right, the membership of BiH is not realistic in the next 15 years. In fact, BiH is not really sovereign as long as the High Representative still exists...

Generally it takes many years from the beginning of the start of the membership negotiations until the real joining (Croatia needs 10 years for example). And until now, BiH hasn't even filled an apllication for memerbership yet. So it's very unlikely that joining EU will happen before 2025.

However, building A1 from Doli to Dubrovnik isn't really that expensive. I don't have any numbers, but afair the costs arent't higher per km as for the other parts of A1.
stickedy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2011, 01:53 AM   #451
darko06
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 774
Likes (Received): 149

So far on Croatian side, there is problem with the Pelješac bridge, and especially with the connection expw from bridge to Doli. (They should be finished in year 2020.)

I agree with Stickedy, the full profile motorway from Doli to Osojnik could be finished very soon, maybe in 3-5 years. Again, an expressway from Osojnik via Ćilipi via Hercegnovi to Kamenari could be build fast and cheap, there is no excessively mountainous terrain. Then the Boka Kotorska bridge could be a trouble, but, one can build that bridge from EU funds in an expw profile and suppose it also for the local traffic (which means: no toll on that bridge), because now there is no satisfactory connection between Hercegnovi and Tivat. One may have problems only after Tivat via Budva to south Sozina portal, because terrain there is far more mountainous than up to Hercegnovi.

But let's be honest and compare Bad Haven's proposal too. There are two very problematic parts on his route: first, accend from Neretva valley to Popovo polje, with at least one 7-8 km long tunnel, and second, a whole part of that supposed route, from Trebinje via Bileća to Nikšić. Without three or four tunnels, where each of them will be 7-8 km long, it simply won't go.

And for the end: I am quite surprised that now, in the middle of November, from Bosiljevo to Split I saw a dozen or so Montenegrin, Albanian and Kosovar register plates. Sapienti sat.

Last edited by darko06; November 26th, 2011 at 02:11 AM.
darko06 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2011, 03:33 AM   #452
aleksandar_s
ETOPS-9000 certified
 
aleksandar_s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 447
Likes (Received): 528

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
And you obviously didn't or didn't want to comprehend my latest argument: it is certain that Montenegro will enter the EU before BH (and for many years before), probably entering Schengen at the same time. In that moment, for Europe it will be the cheapest solution to finance the expressway from Metković via Pelješac via Dubrovnik via Herceg Novi to Tivat, probably with similar geometry as Nova Gorica-Razdrto expressway in Slovenia (steep grades, smaller curves, Vmax=100 km/h). Pelješac bridge and expressway to Dubrovnik (probably even to Ćilipi airport) will be started in 2016 and finished in 2020, so the Montenegrin side will be obliged to build only a bridge in Boka Kotorska bay. And from Tivat there is a few kms to the southern portal of Sozina tunnel, which is the beginning of BB motorway. Advance: the whole expressway will be INSIDE Schengen borders.
Glad to arguing with you.
I dont know what the offical plan is, but this does seem like the logical route. Bosnia probally wont build this motorway anyway. If Croatians want to build this bridge that costs millions just to avoid Bosnia there, then why would they want to enter Bosnia for a few dozen kilometers of motorway? And I agree, Bosnia probally wont join EU anytime soon. The only way I vision them joining in the next decade is if the two republics join seperately.
aleksandar_s no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2011, 03:22 PM   #453
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
And you obviously didn't or didn't want to comprehend my latest argument: it is certain that Montenegro will enter the EU before BH (and for many years before), probably entering Schengen at the same time. In that moment, for Europe it will be the cheapest solution to finance the expressway from Metković via Pelješac via Dubrovnik via Herceg Novi to Tivat, probably with similar geometry as Nova Gorica-Razdrto expressway in Slovenia (steep grades, smaller curves, Vmax=100 km/h). Pelješac bridge and expressway to Dubrovnik (probably even to Ćilipi airport) will be started in 2016 and finished in 2020, so the Montenegrin side will be obliged to build only a bridge in Boka Kotorska bay. And from Tivat there is a few kms to the southern portal of Sozina tunnel, which is the beginning of BB motorway. Advance: the whole expressway will be INSIDE Schengen borders.
Glad to arguing with you.
you obviously didn't or didn't want to comprehend my argument: it is almost impossible to build motorway trough Boka and too pricey as well. I doubt anyone will finance such project especially because it is not MNE priority. MNE will first build Belgrade-Bar motorway than AI motorway and the expressway you are talking will maybe be build 2040.


Your second assumption about MNE entering EU and Schengen at the same time I don't even want to comment. I am sure Mrs. Merkel doesn't have such information, but you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
However, building A1 from Doli to Dubrovnik isn't really that expensive. I don't have any numbers, but afair the costs arent't higher per km as for the other parts of A1.
There is only one problem Croatia is on some places 500m wide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
I agree with Stickedy, the full profile motorway from Doli to Osojnik could be finished very soon, maybe in 3-5 years.
could but it will not be, because there is no work on this section at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Again, an expressway from Osojnik via Ćilipi via Hercegnovi to Kamenari could be build fast and cheap, there is no excessively mountainous terrain.
Are you serious? Have you ever been in Boka? Cheap, flat and fast is not what you wanted to say but expensive, mountainous and long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Then the Boka Kotorska bridge could be a trouble, but, one can build that bridge from EU funds in an expw profile and suppose it also for the local traffic (which means: no toll on that bridge), because now there is no satisfactory connection between Hercegnovi and Tivat.
They will probably build tunnel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
One may have problems only after Tivat via Budva to south Sozina portal, because terrain there is far more mountainous than up to Hercegnovi.
May?!
You are s subjective and unrealistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
But let's be honest and compare Bad Haven's proposal too. There are two very problematic parts on his route: first, accend from Neretva valley to Popovo polje, with at least one 7-8 km long tunnel, and second, a whole part of that supposed route, from Trebinje via Bileća to Nikšić. Without three or four tunnels, where each of them will be 7-8 km long, it simply won't go.
The motorway will cross Neretva near Pocitelj and this is the part of Vc (A1) in BiH. AI and Vc should have the same route on this part. After that it will use edges of Popovo polje.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #454
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandar_s View Post
I dont know what the offical plan is, but this does seem like the logical route. Bosnia probally wont build this motorway anyway. If Croatians want to build this bridge that costs millions just to avoid Bosnia there, then why would they want to enter Bosnia for a few dozen kilometers of motorway?
Why?
Connecting Croatian territories and bypassing Neum. And off course HDZ gets votes in Dubrovnik area so it is the main reason.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2011, 10:24 PM   #455
darko06
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 774
Likes (Received): 149

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Hafen View Post
Why?
Connecting Croatian territories and bypassing Neum. And off course HDZ gets votes in Dubrovnik area so it is the main reason.
So what?
darko06 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2011, 10:34 PM   #456
darko06
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 774
Likes (Received): 149

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad_Hafen View Post
The motorway will cross Neretva near Pocitelj and this is the part of Vc (A1) in BiH. AI and Vc should have the same route on this part. After that it will use edges of Popovo polje.
Come on, how you should argue without knowing the matter? Download the Google Earth and inform yourself about physical characteristics of Popovo polje valley. Than you'll understand why the future motorway won't go through it. Especially the canyon between Trebinje and Bileća, where those three to four tunnels will be badly needed.
Perhaps you should consider buying Autodesk AutoCAD 3DMap (cca 5000$) to clear yourself some technical issues about that.
darko06 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2011, 10:37 PM   #457
darko06
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 774
Likes (Received): 149

Perhaps you are from Trebinje so you badly need that this projected motorway bypass your hometown? Okay, I can understand homesick.
darko06 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2011, 09:41 AM   #458
Ermir
Registered User
 
Ermir's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Placentia/Pärma/アルバニア
Posts: 6,106
Likes (Received): 2814

You could make use of the Multi-Quote and Edit functions
__________________
Survival of the dankest.
Ermir no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2011, 10:19 AM   #459
Bad_Hafen
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,882
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Perhaps you are from Trebinje so you badly need that this projected motorway bypass your hometown? Okay, I can understand homesick.
This is the best you come up with, because you don't have any meaningful answers.

BTW for person who is claiming that building motorway trough Boka is cheap you are really bold in giving remarks about knowing the matter. Next time try to write what did I say wrong and not giving advices about buying software.
Bad_Hafen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2011, 08:47 PM   #460
Foolish Farmer
Athleta Christi
 
Foolish Farmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Pejë [AL]
Posts: 950
Likes (Received): 4

i agree with darko. Bypassing Neum is the most realistic option Croatia has for the extension of the A1. Like it or unlike it. That's reality.

It's also not serious to think that MNE won't build two motorways at one time. There is also the possibility that the BB-Motorway will lost priority in the near future (it's still in construction bidding phase).

The year 2012 will tell us more
Foolish Farmer no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
crna gora

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium