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Old November 30th, 2015, 10:51 AM   #781
keber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The depth of the strait may be an issue. I don't know how deep it is, but you need long access tunnels to descend into the bottom a fjord-like strait.
Nautical map of Boka Kotorska bay:
http://www.yachtcharters-croatia.com...a_Kotorska.jpg
Depth is 35-40 meters.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 04:25 PM   #782
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That's not so bad. A tunnel like that would likely be around -60 m. The Norwegians have plentiful experience with such tunnels.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 04:34 PM   #783
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And plenty of money also

A bridge is cheaper than a tunnel. It's also a problem to align the tunnel endings properly. The lower areas a full of houses, so the planned highway must be build above the residential buildings. It's problematic to reach the necessary height of that highway when building a tunnel.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #784
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Tolls could finance a portion or all of the construction cost. The current ferry price is € 4.50 for a car. They could charge like € 5 or 6 for a bridge or tunnel.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 05:30 PM   #785
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Yeah, of course. They will do that! Otherwise nobody would invest money for building that bridge... However, it's a risk: The bridge is said to cost 40 Mio. Euro (only the bridge I guess, without any access roads). So, with 5 Euro, 8 Mio. cars would have to cross that bridge to get those 40 Mio Euro back. That's quite a lot... In 10 years that would mean over 2.000 cars have to cross the bridge per day in average. No problem in summer I guess, but in winter, fall and spring?

Imagine that problem with a much more expensive tunnel.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 06:07 PM   #786
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The amortization is usually around 25 - 30 years, but you have to take the financing cost (interest) into account as well, driving the cost up beyond € 40 million for the construction itself. And regular maintenance.

They could enhance the tolls by charging more during the summer than during the winter. A slight increase over the ferry rates is justified due to the extra convencience and travel time savings.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 06:27 PM   #787
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I know. It was just a sample calculation. You also have to take the total costs (access roads) into account, so we will be much higher than 40 Mio. Euro.

And you can't rise the toll rates as you wish! Montenegro is a poor country, if the toll rate is too high (and perhaps the ferry service is suspended), more people will drive around the bay causing heavy traffic jams in the towns around the bay. It's not always as simple as it looks...
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Old November 30th, 2015, 06:33 PM   #788
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The ferry will likely cease operations after the bridge is completed. Which leaves the option to pay a toll similar or slightly higher than the ferry rate, or a time-consuming detour around Kotor Bay.

Are there waiting times for the ferry during the summer?
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Old November 30th, 2015, 06:53 PM   #789
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Yes, like hell. Last year, we lost about 30 minutes just in the traffic jam created by the queue for the ferries in Kamenari. The users were mostly foreigners. We took the road around the bay (beacuse we used the old road to Cetinje, sightseeing) and it was full of Montenegrin cars... In Lepetane it's not that bad because there's more a space, a long extra lane for the queue and the bay traffic flows through the tunnel to Kotor.

The ferries are rather small, I would say for 15 cars. So, the bridge is rather critical for traffic in the bay. But it cannot be too expensive to use it. The bay is more or less one big village, so increased traffic means jams, jams, jams

Edit: Afair there are two big ferries and two small ferries, I guess 30 cars vs. 15 cars. But I think there are always just two of them in operation

Last edited by stickedy; November 30th, 2015 at 06:59 PM.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 07:15 PM   #790
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Ferries like these are usually pretty small because it reduces the time needed to load and unload. Giant ferries for a couple hundred cars only work for long routes. In addition, there is no space for a large plaza to queue cars waiting for the ferry.
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Old November 30th, 2015, 11:48 PM   #791
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Breaking news:

Quote:
Nov 26 China Pacific Construction Group (CPCG), the country's largest private builder by revenue, signed an 11 billion yuan ($1.72 billion) deal to build an expressway between Montenegro and Albania, the company said on Thursday.

Construction of the 280 kilometre link will begin in the second half of 2016 and complete in 2018, chairman Yan Jiehe told reporters at a briefing in Beijing.

The firm plans to use toll rights as collateral for the project, Yan said. Financing has yet to be finalised, he said.

....
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...13L3Q720151126

A bid few details though... I guess it's about the long planned coastal expressway in Montenegro, most likely including Verige bridge, and connection to Milot in Albania via Shkodra. Hoewever that connection route is just about 170 to 200 km.
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 08:40 AM   #792
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When talking about financing the new Kotor Bay area bridge, why hasn't anybody mentioned Sozina tunnel, the first major object on the Montenegrin section of the future Belgrade-Bar motorway?

It was opened in 2005, at a cost of $70 million euros and in the ten years since, it has pretty much paid itself off - 22 million vehicles have passed through it, generating revenues of almost 70 million euros. The deadline for repayment of loan that was taken out for its construction is due by 2030.


Quote:
13 July, 2015 - 23:40 Source: Pobjeda
More than 22 million vehicles passed through Sozina

Since its opening, more than 22 million vehicles have passed through the tunnel Sozina. On the occasion of the tenth anniversary of its opening, the CEO of the “Monteput”, Osman Nurkovic, said that they earned €67,308,888 from the toll, billboard renting and interest on deposits by 2014. The toll revenue makes 99% of the entire sum.

“Last year, €7,200,000 revenue was achieved, which is 1% more than in 2013. Due to an increase in the number of vehicles and income, it is considered to be a good result particularly given the overall business environment and the weaker performance of many entities in Montenegro. We have also successfully continued the first quarter of 2015 – the revenues increased 12.5% compared to the same period last year. The data show that the construction of the tunnel was a visionary decision which justified expectations and that investment in infrastructure should continue,” Mr Nurkovic said.

The construction of the tunnel Sozina cost about €74 million, €50 million of which was provided by Montenegro, whereas the European Investment Bank approved a €24 million loan.

“The annual instalment of the loan including the interest amounts to about €2.2 million, and it is to be paid off by 2030. The loan will be repaid in accordance with the agreed repayment schedule and the annual instalment will be less each year, given that the majority of interest to the loan was repaid earlier,” Mr Nurkovic said.

The tunnel Sozina is located on the corridor of the highway Bar-Podgorica-Andrijevica-Boljare and it connects coastal region with the central part of Montenegro. The tunnel is 4,189m long, while the entrance gates are located at 192 meters above sea level.

“The tunnel is in excellent condition, but daily care and maintenance are needed. Ten years is quite a long period and it is necessary, due to deterioration, obsolescence and introduction of modern technical achievements, to continuously monitor and invest in the tunnel, in order for it to be safe for citizens and functional, as it was until now,” Mr Nurkovic said, adding that €5,296,786 was invested in the facility from 2006 to 2014 and that depreciation for the period amounted to €1,118,630.
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 08:53 AM   #793
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Also, it's worth noting - another seldom known fact to foreigners, that has up to now impeded the construction of the bridge/tunnel in Kotor Bay area...the ferry company that currently operates, and makes quite a tidy sum each year while only employing a handful of people ... is majority owned by a close family relative of Montenegro's premier.

Small country problems
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 12:08 PM   #794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazySerb View Post
When talking about financing the new Kotor Bay area bridge, why hasn't anybody mentioned Sozina tunnel, the first major object on the Montenegrin section of the future Belgrade-Bar motorway?

It was opened in 2005, at a cost of $70 million euros and in the ten years since, it has pretty much paid itself off - 22 million vehicles have passed through it, generating revenues of almost 70 million euros. The deadline for repayment of loan that was taken out for its construction is due by 2030.
I drove there too last year
I also took the ferry at Kotor Bay
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 12:39 PM   #795
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The Coastal Motorway news has been updated by Reuters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...S8UvoP3EqrS.97

Quote:
China Pacific Construction Group (CPCG), the country's largest private builder by revenue, signed a 3 billion euro ($3.19 billion) deal to build an expressway between Montenegro and Albania, the company said.

Construction of the 280 kilometre link will begin in the second half of 2016 and take about eight years to complete, it said.

The firm plans to use toll rights as collateral for the project, chairman Yan Jiehe told reporters at a briefing in Beijing on Thursday. Financing has yet to be finalised, he said.
Dubrovnik to Tirana via Montenegro would be around 270km...just saying like.

Whether they can get finance for this concession is a whole other matter of course, that and a precise outline of the concession this Chinese company claims to have. 280km is a lot of road in the particular terrain.

http://invest-in-albania.org/albania...ridor-project/

Quote:
During the holding of the “16+1” economic summit in Suzhou, China, the Albanian delegation headed by the Prime Minister Edi Rama signed an important Memorandum of Understanding between Albania, Montenegro and Pacific Chinese company for the construction of the Blue Corridor.

The news was announced by the Albanian Ministry of Infrastructure which declared through a press conference that “the agreement was signed by the Albanian Minister of Infrastructure Edmond Haxhinasto, his Montenegrian counterpart Ivan Brajovic and the president of Pacific company, Yan Jiehe.”

The signed memorandum opens the possibility that the Chinese company to undertake the construction of the Albanian segment of the Blue Corridor project which is comprised by “Thumane – Peze – Mullet” and “Peze – Dushk” road segments.

The Blue Corridor, also known as the Adriatic – Ionian Highway is a great opportunity for Balkan countries to enhance the economic cooperation and cooperation in other fields, mainly in tourism and trade exchanges.
This Blue Corridor mentioned is:

http://www.balkaneu.com/project-blue...kan-countries/

Quote:
“The Blue Corridor” is considered as the biggest project that will link the Mediterranean, north of Croatia and its southern part with Montenegro, Albania and below with Greece, to create “The Mediterranean Ring”.
The construction of this highway was agreed in a meeting between the prime ministers of Albania, Edi Rama, Croatia, Zoran Milanovic, Montenegro, Milo Djukanovic and Bosnia, Vjekoslav Bevanda. This meeting was held in Croatia a few months ago and came after the Berlin Conference on West Balkan, last August.

Last edited by sponge_bob; December 3rd, 2015 at 12:47 PM.
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 02:59 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
The above link is somehow hmm odd: In the first part, it routes the connection to Greece over the Albanian Riviera (Vlora-Saranda). That would be insane, all plannings were made for a connection to Greece at Kakavia. That's mentioned in the second part of article. But that's copy&paste from Wikipedia
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Old December 7th, 2015, 10:04 PM   #797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickedy View Post
Breaking news:


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...13L3Q720151126

A bid few details though... I guess it's about the long planned coastal expressway in Montenegro, most likely including Verige bridge, and connection to Milot in Albania via Shkodra. Hoewever that connection route is just about 170 to 200 km.
Lol China again.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Montenegro is not a poor country, correct? If it's not poor, then why does it need to resort to cheapshit Chinese road-building quality???

As Montenegro is a European country, it's better to go for European construction companies as they value quality over cost-cutting and cutting corners.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 10:23 PM   #798
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Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post
Lol China again.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Montenegro is not a poor country, correct? If it's not poor, then why does it need to resort to cheapshit Chinese road-building quality???
Because they were the low bidder, and most countries' public procurement rules requiring going with the lowest feasible bid?
Quote:
As Montenegro is a European country, it's better to go for European construction companies as they value quality over cost-cutting and cutting corners.
Ummm have you not perused the Romanian thread lately? They had to close a stretch of motorway after less than a year in service because the Italian contractor cut corners.

Don't be ridiculous.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 10:31 PM   #799
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Montenegro isn't exactly poor, but not very rich either. Its nominal GDP is $ 4 billion. It's like Germany building a $ 1000 billion ($ 1 trillion) motorway.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 10:43 PM   #800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinxxx View Post
I drove there too last year
I also took the ferry at Kotor Bay
Nice and interesting route for foreign travellers.

My goal in close future will be Transalpina in your country.
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